AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

So why would the SLI language not be superseded as well when the MOU specifically states we would use MB.

If a merger with AA happens, it will be governed by M-B - there's no way around it. Post M-B passage and different unions representing the pilots of each merger partner trigger M-B.

However, can you tell me how you get the US/HP merger to fall under M-B? The merger occured prior to passage of M-B. The integrated seniority list for the US/HP merger was achieved prior to M-B. So what is the legal basis for using anything other than Nic and the AA list in compliance with the provisions of M-B (negotiate, mediate, arbitrate)?

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

Who do you think theTA is between you moron APA, AMR and US Aiways?? PS who ya gonna sue in a DFR.....USAPA will be gone in 18 months if not sooner.

NICDOA
NPJB

So will USAPA refund each member proportionally, or will they just hold a wild party on Sehams yacht, "The Crew Meal"

 

[luvn737s]

Senility is setting in with you. Lets try it again....NIC WAS NEVER WAS PART OF A CBA...repeat it real slow......then try this one.....IT WAS NEVER RATIFIED IN A JOINT VOTE BETWEEN EAST AND WEST........do this until you get it!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

You seem to be stymied by the difference between accepting a list and implementing a list. The lack of a JCBA merely delayed the implementation of the arbitrated list. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Sorry to break it to you this way, I tried to be gentle.

 

[traderjake]

Which one's BLT and which one's Barrister?

Lets try it again....NIC WAS NEVER WAS PART OF A CBA...repeat it real slow......then try this one.....IT WAS NEVER RATIFIED IN A JOINT VOTE BETWEEN EAST AND WEST........do this until you get it!!!!

Barrister is the stupid one with the big ears.

 

[luvn737s]

Please invite me to your next poker get together.....Pot limit I hope!!

Are you sure about that? Folks who welch on bets aren't often invited to the table, as you are presently seeing.

Your side sat down to a game of poker 7 yrs ago and when you didn't like the hand you were dealt, you decided to switch to Old Maid and declared yourself the winner.

 

[traderjake]

Dan are you reeeeellllyyyy that stupid. That question will be asnswered............

Are you really that stupid that you misspell "answered" when you call someone stupid?

 

[zethya]

WOW !! This Forum has really degenerated from its historical highs to the pits of message boards. Hard to believe most posters are professional pilots - or are they? Even BB has sunk to the depths of name calling. Why am I still (selectively) reading these posts ? Because I realize the posters likely only represent less than .001 % of the US Pilot group.

 

[luvthe9]

Why have we not had an update from the Compass Correction idiots that brought us this POS MOU. How about an update Menear, Ciabattoni, Rowe, Thomas and Campbell. Wow, you guys took over the union and not a word form your group. What's the matter? For a group that liked to mouth off every chance they got they sure are quiet!!!!!!.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It figures that you missed it....fire, ready, aim...

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Why have we not had an update from the Compass Correction idiots that brought us this POS MOU. How about an update Menear, Ciabattoni, Rowe, Thomas and Campbell. Wow, you guys took over the union and not a word form your group. What's the matter? For a group that liked to mouth off every chance they got they sure are quiet!!!!!!.

There was one a couple of days ago - and another one today titled 'A Bum's Rush'.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

A Bum's Rush!

[background=transparent]A Limited Window for Negotiations! [/background]

















We must act NOW...Where have we heard that refrain, before? Image Blocked









The latest update from your USAPA Negotiation Advisory Committee paints a very scary picture. In sober and avuncular language, this message spells out what the Officers and the newly constituted NAC want you to believe is the inevitable outcome for the pilots of US Airways, should we decide not to accept the MOU, as it now stands. Attached please find below, the final paragraph from that recent NAC Update, for the reader’s convenience.
“In order to proceed with the proposed merger, US Airways and American Airlines will [background=rgb(255, 255, 153)]most likely[/background] enter into an agreement to share sensitive financial information. This Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) [background=rgb(255, 255, 153)]may contain [/background]restrictions that preclude US Airways management from communicating with both USAPA and APA concerning the merger. This limitation on USAPA’s bargaining rights, in our view, is not permissible under the Railway Labor Act. Nonetheless, it will last for too short a time (60 days or less) for us to contest it. [background=rgb(255, 255, 153)]If this happens,[/background] and over our objections, we will be [background=rgb(255, 255, 153)]restricted from holding further negotiations during this time”[/background]
We have highlighted the modifiers in the above update, in order to point out its highly speculative nature. Reread that paragraph… “most likely”, “may”, “if this happens”.
HERE, by contrast, are some things that are not speculative; this MOU, as it now presents does not insure pay parity, (rather there is a nebulous concept of matching “cockpit crew costs”. Look for an entire treatise on this subject in the near future) - it does not provide adequate protections for downsizing, the American Working Agreement, “The Green Book” is a nearly complete mystery to most of us…just to name a few of the problems.
Ironically, the very last line, (above) from our NAC, contains a declarative sentence…that turns out to be very much in doubt! A couple of union negotiators from US Airways’ past say that is poppy cock; (they actually used much stronger language). The question of restricted negotiations, absent the current MOU is very much an open one.
Perhaps of the greatest importance; the MOU as it reads now, strips from the Pilots of US Airways the best “Change of Control” and “Scope,” (what is and is not your flying) - contract language left in this ravaged and decimated industry. That is why Priority One for Mr. Parker and Company was to get your NAC to give it up for a lick and promise of proportional block hour reductions, (plus or minus 5% for narrow body and plus or minus 10% for wide body&rdquo😉 and nearly unlimited code sharing; not a good thing for the growth of our seniority list.
It is important to mention that there is a long history of bankrupt carriers who have reduced their block hours following emergence from bankruptcy. There is no reason to believe that, “The New American Airlines”, will be any different.
In reference to this probable shrinkage, we have agreed to share the reduction pain that typically follows bankruptcy. What’s even more troubling for US Airways pilots is that as a result of the, “within 5% 10% language “- agreed to in the MOU, the former US Airways can and likely shall, actually shrink at a greater rate than American The language is such that we could actually shrink while American grows. This would be especially tragic, in light of our soon to commence attrition, which is disproportionally high, (during the next 5-6 years) - compared to that of the “old” American!
If there is a change of control over the pilots of US Airways now, (American buys us, or even vice versa) - we revert to our 1998 contract, which pays narrow body Captains over $227/hr. and which includes other, superior language; that is a fact.
This language also creates tremendous bargaining leverage that increases as we get closer to December 28. 2012 and should not be squandered away for only a small fraction of what it’s worth – or, worse, for free! Why should we give away our best protection right when we need it the most? If we sign on to the MOU, as currently worded, that is GONE!
If you feel we need to sign this MOU a.s.a.p., you may want to reread the above paragraph.
Here’s something else; the Pilots of American Airlines get something between, $100, to $200 Million dollars to shore up their frozen Defined Benefit retirements, the Pilots of US Airways get $40 Million, in the form of a “signing bonus”. That is more heavily taxed, and comes to an amount equal to about 1.5% of what each of us lost in our old Defined Benefit Plan. American gets a frozen Defined Benefit Retirement, plus a 14% match on their follow on Defined Contribution Plan; we get the 14%. In other words, if you agree to sign this MOU, you are agreeing to help fund the AA Retirement at our expense. Does this actually make sense to you?
We posed the question of whether, or not we, “lose our seat at the table”, if we do not sign the current MOU - to outgoing Negotiating Advisory Committee Chairman, Captain Paul DiOrio. Here is Paul’s opinion for the Pilots’ consideration:
“This is absolutely misleading. Almost from the beginning we were given “seat at the table” and it was never predicated on any agreement between USAPA and US Airways, MOU or otherwise. I assure you nothing will change regarding our “seat at the table” if US Airways pilots disapprove this deficient MOU, USAPA will retain our seat at the table, however bear in mind that APA will most likely continue to reject our suggestions, whenever our needs have an adverse affect on their $240 million dollar concession target, unless of course, we can find the $$$ to keep what we currently have. The Company and APA have been perfectly clear with respect to this issue, any suggestion/proposal we have “must fit within the same economic framework as the Term Sheet”. In other words, if we want our pilots to keep anything they have, contractually, the cost for those benefits must be offset, (rob Peter, to pay Paul) - to maintain that provision. Period. It is a zero-sum game and it is not good “ Paul DiOrio, August 27, 2012
Maybe a good question to ask yourself is this: Do you believe our executives have insisted on cost-neutral employment contracts for themselves since 2005?
These are just a few of the items that give us pause. In the days to come, there will be more detail, to aid our Pilots in their decision for, or against this MOU.
Please understand; Compass Correction and this author are 100% for a merger with American Airlines. It makes so much sense that only a Luddite would oppose it. HOWEVER…how many times in the past have we been given the bum’s rush into a crap deal and regretted it later?
This merger, with all its many tendrils might approach $30 BILLION in total value. For US Airways negotiators to say, with a straight face that the company cannot afford to sweeten this deal for the aging, retiring and much put upon Pilots who have carried this airline on our backs and financed its survival out of our wallets and pensions is ridiculous.
This is, “THE DEAL”; the one which Management has been working for…..what do you suppose it would be worth to Management, to have the Pilots not enforce our contract, tooth and nail? I think we owe it to our families and ourselves, to find out exactly what that number is.
At the last BPR meeting, a committeeman posed this rhetorical question to the Board: why do we currently have a Transition Agreement for the US Airways/ America West merger? Answer: because Mr. Parker needed one. This guy was in the room, in 2005, when Parker said, (in reference to the US Airways/America West Deal) - “sign on, or don’t; I don’t need you; I’ll do it without your support.”
Well, it turns out that even with having US in bankruptcy court he couldn’t, “do it without us”, in that deal…. and he can’t now….at least not without a creditor-scaring, investor-spooking, timeline ruining court fight over our change of control and scope language….which is very good indeed, (remember the earlier point that during recent negotiations, Priority One, for Mr. Parker, was to get rid of Change of Control and Scope, in the MOU).
Ask yourselves this; would this well run Company really ruin a dream deal, a $30, (or so) – Billion transaction, over a weird obsession to deny their pilots monies that merely represent Industry Standard wages and benefits? We are worth it and our pay raise is long, long overdue.
“I remember vividly the time in March of 2003 when I was standing in the Federal Court House at Alexandria, VA. After listening to testimony for three days, I suggested directly to Bill Pollock, that we go immediately to Mr. Siegel, to offer a freeze of our pension.
To the end, the Judge made it clear that we, the Pilots would have to vote to terminate our own pensions; that he, the Judge, would not. I said to Pollock, make the offer and this would all be over.
Bill told me that I didn’t understand…that THERE JUST WASN’T TIME ENOUGH to change the agreement and that I was betting the careers of thousands of pilots. I pointed out that the $75,000,000 it would have taken to pay up our pension was chump change, when compared to saving a $7,000,000,000 corporation. Bill and Donn Butkovic countered that the credit card companies…..THE CREDIT CARD COMPANIES, would never allow that. I stared in disbelief at both of them and walked away, knowing we had just beaten ourselves. I’m still shaking my head over management’s ability to sell pilots a load of fertilizer. In retrospect...Bill and the MEC (Doug Mowery and John Brookman nobly excepted…good on you guys!) - were snookered.” Woody Menear August 27, 2012
We suggest that our current situation has the ring of familiarity and the smell of another slick trick, bum’s rush and we don’t like it. And after what YOU’VE been through, you shouldn’t either! In fact, the hair on your neck should be standing straight up in alarm at such attempts to use the same strategy against you - repeatedly. (A good axiom is “Fool me once; shame on you! Fool me twice: shame on ME!&rdquo😉 Pity those with short memory!
Ladies and Gentlemen: There has been no merger announcement. If and when there is such a transaction, we…seated beside our merger partners, the pilots of American Airlines, should be ready to very quickly negotiate a joint contract.
The main point of the NAC Update to us, the Line Pilots seems to be this; we must sign on to this MOU now or we “lose our seat at the negotiating table.” Well, I submit that we can’t lose that which we never had, namely a seat at the table.
Months ago, the Management of US Airways negotiated directly with the pilots of another airline, without bothering to include, (or even notify, to my knowledge) – the pilots of the airline they actually manage…US Airways.
US Airways management negotiated a Term Sheet with American, which was superior to what those pilots might expect from their own management, SINCE THEY ARE IN BANKRUPTCY.
We are not in bankruptcy…
“Our” management set the parameters of money, working conditions, Scope, retirement, (a much better deal for American than for us, by the way) and also decided without our input, that American’s “Green Book”, would become our working agreement. All of this was done before we got our seat at the table.
What was left for our NAC to do was basically wrestle with APA, (indirectly, through US Airways company negotiators) – for how much of the pre-negotiated pie we got and how much the American Pilots retained.
Think about how weird this whole deal is; a “virtual merger”…no merger announced, no negotiations with ALL of the represented pilots. Instead, US Airways goes to a pilot group with whom they do not have any legal affiliation…. and then they give them our stuff. Later, they say to us, “here’s the deal…..take it, or leave it; we’ll do it, with, or without you.”
Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.
In 1995, due to “needs” of the Company for a 20% pay reduction, we faced a T/A which was under similar time constraints. The MEC was wise enough to mandate “patience.” Shortly thereafter, our F/As voted down their contract and the company immediately withdrew ALL concessionary T/As. Patience has repeatedly proven to pay us huge dividends.
Our “Scope” and “Change of Control” language cost our pilot group an estimated $6.5 Billion. How much “value” has that lost – to you – since then? How many times must we travel a path before we recognize the neighborhood and the rhetoric?
Exercise patience, study the issues, give yourself an education and have faith in your own logic and we will get a better, fairer deal, in my considered opinion.

Fraternally,
Rich Wargin CLT B-737
Woody Menear PHL 76i
With the authors’ sincere thanks to Paul DiOrio, for his editorial comment.

































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[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

This COMPASS CORRUPTION group axes DIORIO, IE DAVE CIABATTONI, gets his boy JOHN OWENZ( Our Deal with alot of corporations braggert and know it all) along with 2 WEST negotiators(yea right! The (let me show ya how crowd) and here it is the seat at the table, "YOUR GOING TO LIKE THIS" according to OWENZ MOU! CLASSIC!

 

[luvthe9]

A Bum's Rush!

[background=transparent]A Limited Window for Negotiations! [/background]


Exercise patience, study the issues, give yourself an education and have faith in your own logic and we will get a better, fairer deal, in my considered opinion.

Fraternally,
Rich Wargin CLT B-737
Woody Menear PHL 76i
With the authors’ sincere thanks to Paul DiOrio, for his editorial comment.


































[background=rgb(255,255,255)] [/background]

With the authors’ sincere thanks to Paul DiOrio, for his editorial comment. I don't get it Menaer is one of the one's that had Paul thrown off. Exercise patience, study the issues, give yourself an education and have faith in your own logic and we will get a better, fairer deal, in my considered opinion.

 

[luvthe9]

You Compass clowns need to get DiOrio back on the NAC and get rid rid of Owens who is useless. Owens is concerned about the holes in the ground across the country that they were made by aliens, you guys can sure pick 'em

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You Compass clowns need to get DiOrio back on the NAC and get rid rid of Owens who is useless. Owens is concerned about the holes in the ground across the country that they were made by aliens, you guys can sure pick 'em

Payback for not approving OWENS fulltime FPL , kick off DIORIO, get OWENS! DAVE C and ERIC stamp my own customs form in PHL, crowd, BTW those grievance settlements a company win!