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AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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NO when in doubt the 9th clerified it for you, pay that AOL check now, Marty needs a new car! MM

Damn MM, your an army of one kicking ass on the AOLers's today. thanks!

Time after time you point out their follies only to get a 6th grade type insult .
Their replies make me think it's true that 80% of them are struggle along with their High School Degree or GED intellect. It's truly gonna suck if my 2005 bretheren end up commuter flying again as you've repeated many time to them the quote of where ALL the risk lies.

Greed always has a way of biting you in the a$$ eventually.

Since they routinely spin BS, I'll post the facts AGAIN.

"5] We conclude that this case presents contingencies that
could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the
accompanying injury. At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA" 9th Court of Appeals"

To the res/uhaul/Nic/metro out there.......your desperation is showing badly.
Get a grip men!

Fire away,

FA

 
All these quotes of east pilots from Luv9 leave me asking one simple question.

Exactly how have any of you east a-holes sacrificed or given one iota, to now deserve compensation?

It is a recurring theme.."we have sacrificed sooo much to give in now"..."its a slap in the face after all we have sacrificed"...etc...

Listen up losers. You won the effin lottery in 2005 when the job that was about to be pulled out from under you got bought by AWA and you got another 7 years of employment. You have not made a single sacrifice that was not of your own making, and you effed over the West pilot group trying to steal from us...so please just vote your uninformed ignorant devoid of situational awareness conscience, and STFU with the whinning already.
 
Damn MM, your an army of one kicking ass on the AOLers's today. thanks!

Time after time you point out their follies only to get a 6th grade type insult .
Their replies make me think it's true that 80% of them are struggle along with their High School Degree or GED intellect. It's truly gonna suck if my 2005 bretheren end up commuter flying again as you've repeated many time to them the quote of where ALL the risk lies.

Greed always has a way of biting you in the a$$ eventually.

Since they routinely spin BS, I'll post the facts AGAIN.

"5] We conclude that this case presents contingencies that
could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the
accompanying injury. At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA" 9th Court of Appeals"

To the res/uhaul/Nic/metro out there.......your desperation is showing badly.
Get a grip men!

Fire away,

FA

Holy k-rap...read your own quote there, then keep telling us about 6th grade reading literacy you idiot.

The 9th said in your quote..there are contingencies that could prevent usapa from completing the scab plan....therefore not ripe. Had usapa obtained their agenda (which never would have happened because the little scab lawyer was not going to get the company to go along with an illegal game plan for the mere price of labor peace..or crew meal...[man I cannot believe you morons fell for that shiiiit from the union busting lawyer])...but if usapa had succeeded, they would have been toast at the 9th.
 
Damn MM, your an army of one kicking ass on the AOLers's today. thanks!

Time after time you point out their follies only to get a 6th grade type insult .
Their replies make me think it's true that 80% of them are struggle along with their High School Degree or GED intellect. It's truly gonna suck if my 2005 bretheren end up commuter flying again as you've repeated many time to them the quote of where ALL the risk lies.

Greed always has a way of biting you in the a$$ eventually.

Since they routinely spin BS, I'll post the facts AGAIN.

"5] We conclude that this case presents contingencies that
could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the
accompanying injury. At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA" 9th Court of Appeals"

To the res/uhaul/Nic/metro out there.......your desperation is showing badly.
Get a grip men!

Fire away,

FA

And here I thought MM had no equal when it came to being an idiot.

Then along comes FA.

STFU.
 
[font="Arial][background=transparent]To Members of the NAC[/background][/font]

I know you are working hard at trying to get the best contract, but unfortunately this MOU is a kick in the teeth. Why would we give up Scope and Change of Control for a mere $10,000 bonus? What happened to RLA procedure for getting what's owed to us from the point of the amendable contract date? This bonus??? Doesn't even come close for all those years of Bankruptcy Wages, not to mention the fact that we were promised parity with the West from day one when we signed a contract. That bonus number has got to get a lot bigger, before I'm voting YES. I will vote strongly NO for this MOU.

Dave Westberg
Chairman, PIC
Who promised you parity from day one?

ALPA? You guys voted them out. They don't owe you anything. Otherwise your whole that was ALPA argument is wrong.
 
We're being asked/forced to pay for apa/aa pilots A PLAN...thank you f'n usapa.

OTTER

No, we're not. As has been explained several times on this board, $20 mil/yr for six years will fund the frozen AA DB plan. $120 mil dollars. We asked for an equivilant amount. We negotiated for $40 mil. Some call it a signing bonus because the complay will pay us up front for it.

THAT is what our paid experts said. THAT is what the NAC said. You are not being forced to pay for anything.

Do you guys just enjoy being angry?

Driver...
 
As has been explained several times on this board, $20 mil/yr for six years will fund the frozen AA DB plan.

I read on another board that Bill McKee was on the ALPA MEC when they on two occasions voted down freezing our DB plan in closed session.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?
 
I read on another board that Bill McKee was on the ALPA MEC when they on two occasions voted down freezing our DB plan in closed session.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

That is what I was told by other MEC members and the Negotiating Committee member that briefed the MEC that they had 90 days to freeze the DB plan or ERISA would kick in and we would ultimately lose it. They did nothing, ERISA kicked in and we did lose it. But the PIT rep got his lump sum so I guess it wasn't a total loss. He and one other MEC member managed to pull that off and the rest of us got PBGC.

I would love to have that Negotiating Committee member in a CLT BPR meeting to see what explaination could be offered for our losing instead of freezing our DB plan.

Driver...
 
Gentlemen,

The banquet table has been set. And the old will devour their
young. Bon Apetite' !

Dave Kozeruba

Dave wasn't at the meetings I was at. Wonder what he is basing his statement on.

Driver...
 
I just wish the east would get over the FAIR integration called the NIC..Just wonder what we could've/should've achieved minus corrupt usapa....Sorry, this is past tense because usapa AGAIN screwed the pooch and the ship has SAILED into the APA/A plan pockets funded by all of us.

OTTER


Otter,

USAPA,ALPA,APA . It doesn't matter who is dealing with the company because the company knew from the beginning that there was not enough time to complete the MOU with either APA or USAPA. This was just a way of distracting both unions from the start. Typical Jerry Glass. You would think by now we would all recognize the pattern. What American and USAirways is doing is to further discontent within the unions. Fear, Uncertainty, doubt, and hate.


Bob
 
Otter,

USAPA,ALPA,APA . It doesn't matter who is dealing with the company because the company knew from the beginning that there was not enough time to complete the MOU with either APA or USAPA. This was just a way of distracting both unions from the start. Typical Jerry Glass. You would think by now we would all recognize the pattern. What American and USAirways is doing is to further discontent within the unions. Fear, Uncertainty, doubt, and hate.


Bob


True enough Bob. As a perpetually "junior" pilot for the past 25 years, I have NEVER voted for ANYTHING, ALPA or USAPA has put out. I don't intend to change now.

Jerry Glass is calling the shots for "Team Tempe" and this whole thing is being engineered to keep all the pilot factions at each others throats.

Mark my words, at the end of the day, we will be flying the same airplanes, from the same bases, under the same contracts and rates of pay, with one paint job!

These guys (management) wrote the book on this and have ZERO desire to do anything else, why would they?


seajay
 
Opinion......Occasionally the stars align and Compass Correction's opinions and mine coincide. I will echo their condemnation of this MOU. But why the cheap shot at Mike Cleary and Paul DiOrio that they said could not get a contract? Well boys, your boy Hummel got us a contract. How do you like it?

Here is my problem. We elected a management pilot that was hell bent on a deal with the company under any circumstances. He advertised this when he ran for election letting management know that when he was elected, the candy store would be open.

Then he fired the Chairman of the NAC Paul DiOrio just before going into these negotiations. What better signal to the company than to get rid of the guy that was standing firm on what the pilots said they wanted in a new contract and one that would sound the alarm.

So, is it any surprise that we got our heads handed to us? All we did was negotiate against ourselves. Is it a surprise that the company once again tells us that we are paying for this merger?

Not only did we lose our pensions, but we are told that we will pay for the protection of the American pilot's pensions. There is loss of scope and protections, loss of the Change of Control provision and so much ambiguity in the MOU language that the NAC had to call Kirby during the BPR meeting to ask him for clarification on some items. I just bet he clarified it all right. All this for $10,000 that after taxes will be reduced to about $6,500. We sell ourselves cheap.

So far, other than Hummel, the attorneys who will just move on to the next client and Chip Munn and his jolly band of misfits. Everyone else sees this for what it is -- a concessionary contract!

Right now, there is a lack of information and a distrust of the information we are receiving since it seems to be contradictory. That is what happens when a Hummel and the NAC meet secretly to negotiate. They should have been given directions from the BPR, had the BPR in constant contact with the NAC during negotiations and we would now have a pilot group that can trust the outcome and a BPR in support of the proposal. What we got was a fait accompli from Hummel and the NAC and total chaos! I have been told that we got all we asked for. WHO ASKED FOR IT? Not you and me! Not the BPR!

Nothing has changed here. The company studies the pilot group. Figures out the least amount of money they can pay us in spite of the industry averages. We are impatient with how long it takes to get a new contract (we behave as the company expects us to) so we elect a union leader they can manipulate. Than they throw that amount of money on the table and tells us to 'split it any way you want, but that's all you will get from us.' Then they watch as management pilots and the pilots that only have a short time left try to sell it to the ones that will have to live with it for years. Then to add another element, they say we have to decide quickly or else. I've seen this movie before and I know how it ends. It ends with panic and later recriminations.

We have been rejecting this tactic for years. Yes, some will argue that we never got a contract. It was a strategy designed by the company so we would eventually take anything offered. The company refused to move forward and than pitted the east against the west to keep us all off balance. It was a great strategy for the company and has kept us all in bankruptcy wages long after it was necessary.

But times and circumstances changed with the announcement that US Airways was trying to merge with American. We should have used this opportunity to flex our muscles. Instead we folded and we changed tactics when we changed leadership. We may have to change leadership again to regain some of the strengths we should have in this time of change.


We built this company, not Parker and Kirby. We keep it running, not Parker and Kirby. Many of us will still be here many years from now. Probably not Parker and Kirby. The millions that will be made will be made, not by us but by Parker and Kirby. Keep that in mind.

We have been negotiating for years with the same amount of money being offered that was originally offered to us in spite of a changing industry, changing fortunes and cost of living increases. Yes, they now offer us a vague promise that we will be paid more for our services. But in that promise is a cloud and a lot of unanswered questions that the protections we had would have prevented any slight of hand by management. They wanted scope, not because they just threw that in there, but so they can strip this airline of its planes and reassemble it as a much smaller airline with 190's for the smaller cities we will serve. History is a lesson we need to keep looking at. The promise of $170 an hour will not apply to the 190's. The protections of the larger airplanes will disappear like a puff of smoke. If those protections are somehow in there, we need clarification and a guarantee.

As for Change of Control, if they want this deal, cough up more money. There are Billions of dollars involved. The American pilots get their pensions. We get $6500 take home bonuses? Who is kidding who?

As Wolfe once said. "You will only get what you can negotiate." Did we really negotiate or were we told "That's it, take it or leave it? I don't know but I suspect we bungled this negotiation from the start when we advertised our intent from the outset.

Well, our leader got us into this. It may take new leadership to get us out.
 
Opinion.....Bill, This so-called "negotiated" mou is the result of a leadership
team (Team Hummel) that is obviously just salivating to get a deal, ANY
deal, done. There obviously was not much (IF ANY) negotiating going on.
If this is what our "professional" negotiator and attornies think is as
good as we can do, then we should fire them all immediately and hire
the AFA negotiators. How is it that the AFA is able to retain and
somewhat strenghten their Scope, yet our guys literally just GAVE IT
ALL AWAY!!!! If this insult (the mou) is an example of TEAM HUMMELS
idea of a fair deal, then don't be surprised when Hummel and his
professional negotiator offers up the NIC as our position when it comes
to seniority! Don't think it isn't possible? All Hummel and his ilk
want to do is "just get along". My take is that Hummel and the boys
think that we can easily be bought by a pay raise and insulting $
10,000 (before taxes and dues) "bonus". I am with Jim Tilman, I am
voting NO on this!! (Though probably not as calmly)
 
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