AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

My issue is Parker has stated it would be cheaper.....So how much cheaper.....and how much are we shortchanged. 40 mill I would guess is a 1/10th of what he saves

How much cheaper? Who knows? $1M? $10M?

You want to vote down the MOU to figure it out while the APA sits at the table alone with the company?

 

[Barrister]

That's what has been reported by the NAC, I believe.

First, there won't be a merger while AA is in bankruptcy. It'll be part of the POR (like US/HP) or AMR will emerge stand-alone. I would give 100-1 odds on that.

Plus Parker is giving something for the CoC and scope - call it 5000 US pilots who would go to higher pay immediately upon a merger plus a signing bonus if there's a merger, plus pay protection and a few other things. Per pilot it may sound cheap but for the US pilot group it's hundreds of million of dollars.

Jim

Hey idiot boy....go read the term sheet.....who pays for those pay protections ???
God.....if only you were really as smart as you think you are!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Claxon]

When you're talking relative money, no its not.

Just like this MOU. It's only worth a small amount to the company because they don't need it. But they're will to pony up the relatively small amount to smooth the path to merger.

That make sense?

They need it. The fact they say they don't, and casually infer it is just a small obstacle and you should remove it to save them money is the real clue. Did Parker give you pay parity? No. Now make him pay every way every day for that alone. Make him find a way to take it, and make it really hard. I bet you win.

 

[Claxon]

How much cheaper? Who knows? $1M? $10M?

You want to vote down the MOU to figure it out while the APA sits at the table alone with the company?

Who gives a damn for this company? East division pilots alone have good reason to battle this one all the way to the end. How many years do you have with the parity? How many years at all? Probably only a few. Tank the MOU. Who wants to be at any table with Parker? he would eat your food and drink your beer. After he takes your scope and runs hard with it. This will be LOA93 on steroids if you are stupid enough to give COC and scope.

 

[nycbusdriver]

How do you ever get in an airplane if every decision is based on an extremely remote chance of disaster? Do you delay a flight because there is a chance that every checked bag is 20% heavier than allowed and you are facing a maximum performance takeoff ? No, you go based on the information that you have, not what you dream up. Yes, the most secure thing you can do is do nothing, but the US pilots are not being given that option.

We are moving forward and are facing two choices: 1. Move forward with certain meager protections and guarantees or 2. See how we fit into APA's survival plan as an appendix.

I agree that there's alot not to like in this MOU, and we will have to face the issues containined in it in subsequent contracts, and that will not be easy. It will take unity and maturity and pretending we have and should choose the option of staying where we are displays neither.

If you had a maximum performance takeoff, and the company had been caught many times over the years undercounting bags, or shaving 20% off the baggage weight, what would you do? It's not so much about what is in front of us today, but about the history the US pilots (east and west) have endured. The east, in particular, can recount ad nauseam and ad infinitum the contract abuses, empty promises, reneged agreements, etc. just within the last 15 years (with the advent of Wolf & Co.)

We are reading between the lines, here, and know that what's in the MOU may be far from what will be delivered. AA filed Chapter 11 with $4 billion in the bank. Do you really think Parker will refrain from "rethinking" the Term Sheet, MOU and any agreement and file BK again in a year or two to renege on everything citing unsustainable labor costs? Been there. Pardon my skepticism, but I vote NO with zero apologies for it.

Or you could tell her what's in the MOU: "Honey I lost my position on the last bid, but I'm pay protected until I can hold it again." You can also tell her "If we lose time, the AA side loses at least twice that much...wonder who is going to fly all the A320s, 737s, 787s, 777s and 330s we have on order?"

Driver...

What A320s, 737s, 787s, 777s and 330s? Could they be part of the "more airplanes (400 Airbuses) than God can count"? Are you REALLY so naive to think that those airplane orders can't evaporate in the blink of an eye? Are you so naive to think that the airplane you are flying today can't be sold next week to JetBlue, or Frontier, or Spirit, or....?

REALLY?

 

[EastUS1]

The east, in particular, can recount ad nauseam and ad infinitum the contract abuses, empty promises, reneged agreements, etc.

We are reading between the lines, here, and know that what's in the MOU may be far from what will be delivered. AA filed Chapter 11 with $4 billion in the bank. Do you really think Parker will refrain from "rethinking" the Term Sheet, MOU and any agreement and file BK again in a year or two to renege on everything citing unsustainable labor costs?

Are you so naive to think that the airplane you are flying today can't be sold next week to JetBlue, or Frontier, or Spirit, or....?

REALLY?

Well summed up sir.

 

[Claxon]

If you had a maximum performance takeoff, and the company had been caught many times over the years undercounting bags, or shaving 20% off the baggage weight, what would you do? It's not so much about what is in front of us today, but about the history the US pilots (east and west) have endured. The east, in particular, can recount ad nauseam and ad infinitum the contract abuses, empty promises, reneged agreements, etc. just within the last 15 years (with the advent of Wolf & Co.)

We are reading between the lines, here, and know that what's in the MOU may be far from what will be delivered. AA filed Chapter 11 with $4 billion in the bank. Do you really think Parker will refrain from "rethinking" the Term Sheet, MOU and any agreement and file BK again in a year or two to renege on everything citing unsustainable labor costs? Been there. Pardon my skepticism, but I vote NO with zero apologies for it.



What A320s, 737s, 787s, 777s and 330s? Could they be part of the "more airplanes (400 Airbuses) than God can count"? Are you REALLY so naive to think that those airplane orders can't evaporate in the blink of an eye? Are you so naive to think that the airplane you are flying today can't be sold next week to JetBlue, or Frontier, or Spirit, or....?

REALLY?

You are dead on. Parker will betray you immediately after you sign the MOU. He has screwed the eastern group for years. He actually enjoys it. Look at your past dealings with this dirtball outfit. Nothing but trouble. Parker will continue the trouble as soon as he can. They went for the injunction. Have them file to withdraw it first. Give him a little test. MAKE HIM GIVE THE EASTERN DIV. PAY PARITY FIRST. YOU ARE FOOLS IF YOU GIVE PARKER YOUR SCOPE.

 

[luvn737s]

My issue is Parker has stated it would be cheaper.....So how much cheaper.....and how much are we shortchanged. 40 mill I would guess is a 1/10th of what he saves

Remember, recouping a dollar of what you think you are owed in any CoC would rest with the APA, who would likely not have any interest in chasing that goose. The east could file a DFR against APA (if they could be determined to be a class AND enough east pilots wanted to finance such a suit themselves), but you know how long those take to work out.

 

[EastUS1]

The fact they say they don't, and casually infer it is just a small obstacle and you should remove it to save them money is the real clue.

Indeed and even worse yet; it's my understanding that their lips were moving when they did so = They were lying.

 

[Graceson]

My issue is Parker has stated it would be cheaper.....So how much cheaper.....and how much are we shortchanged. 40 mill I would guess is a 1/10th of what he saves

Wouldn't surprise me to have parker return after the NDA Period with grim news on the state of the combined airline: Financials worse than estimated. Synergies, however, provide stronger long term viability than stand-alone -- but at short term sacrifices for labor. LCC has deadline to present costing for combined POR. LPPs and COC are no longer an option for USAPA. APA term sheet will stand, but the reverse transaction expense will be inherited as a liability to a combined CBA. We're giving you twelves peas on your plate; APA has ten USAPA has two. We're taking two peas back to pay for the reverse transaction. You two vote on how to divide it up.

 

[nycbusdriver]

...A yes vote would give the 330 guys an instant 50k pay raise...

Instant? Really? Care to restate that?

 

[luvn737s]

We are reading between the lines, here, and know that what's in the MOU may be far from what will be delivered. AA filed Chapter 11 with $4 billion in the bank. Do you really think Parker will refrain from "rethinking" the Term Sheet, MOU and any agreement and file BK again in a year or two to renege on everything citing unsustainable labor costs? Been there. Pardon my skepticism, but I vote NO with zero apologies for it.

Translation: "I'll cling to my phantom boogiemen because they serve my purpose to divide and weaken the pilot group to the point where a tyrant like Cleary can regain power and continue to do nothing."

You supported a leader in Cleary who produced NOTHING for this pilot group in exchange for millions in dues money and was so marginalized by management that they refused to even deal with his juvenile antics. Well, except for that Injunction thingy which added neutering to the marginalizing.

I'm sorry you are so shocked to see the pilots finally stand up and take the reins away from the tyranical minority who placed their lust for power above serving the needs of the pilots to move forward.

Again, standing pat is not an option. We will move forward with you or without you (and hopefully without some of (East)us).

 

[Hate2fly]

Cleary was the strongest union leader this group has ever had as president. He was elected by the majority. This weak ass group of pilots wasn't ready for a leader like Mike. The weak sisters have control of the union now and within 4 short months have raised the white flag. Sad!
Hate

 

[luvn737s]

He has screwed the eastern group for years.

1. Replacing Non-rev boarding by First come to seniority
2. AIrcraft Orders
3. Repainting 3 heritage aircraft because of whining over color
4. Profit sharing
5. Reinstating Airbus shooter
6. Allowing USAPA to drag it's feet without consequence
7. Inequitable furloughs / recalls
8. Allowing CLP to remain
9. Moving MOC/SOC to PIT
10. Inequitable training overpayment settlement

I have just scratched the surface, but you have never faced a CEO who really played hardball with you. The east pilots have a history of denying the realities of the present and then paying for it well into the future.

That seems to be changing with this MOU and the merger with AMR. There seems to be a new-found activism on the part of the line pilots to part with the dead-end past and join with a group who has combined unity and resolve to become a relevant force in crafting their own destiny. The US pilots could have done the same had they not sat on their hands and allowed a small minority to capitalize on apathy to extract what they wanted and leave the carcass behind.

 

[luvn737s]

and subsequently proves themself bereft of any shred of integrity or honor by failing to make good on that contract. 😉

Oh, really?...