Bush Won, America Got It Right Again!

[Fly]

I bet the laughter you were hearing was aimed at you and not the children.

[post="197801"][/post]​

Not were I live baby! Of course he didn't make it a habit to visit Palm Beach too much in the 4 years until it occured to him he better make nice to the voters here. Too afraid to see the hatred from the protestors outside the gates. Welcome Mr President!

Mr Aero - Ever see anything public where the president hasn't had ALL attendees screened for their complete right-wing ideals? If you aren't a kool-aid drinker, you won't be hearing this guy speak. Republican Convention demonstrators were outside, not inside.

I say he's YOUR president because he does not have the interests of the people, just the interests of those surrounded by him. I would never be allowed near him for fear he may have to hear that we don't actually agree with every piece of crap that comes out of Karl Rove's mouth (you know Karl Rove, the guy who attended a half dozen colleges but never graduated, right?).

So forgive me that I won't be jumping on your little Kool-aid bandwagon but I believe that Bush is nothing but an incompetent puppet.

 

[MrAeroMan]

Not were I live baby! Of course he didn't make it a habit to visit Palm Beach too much in the 4 years until it occured to him he better make nice to the voters here. Too afraid to see the hatred from the protestors outside the gates. Welcome Mr President!

Mr Aero - Ever see anything public where the president hasn't had ALL attendees screened for their complete right-wing ideals? If you aren't a kool-aid drinker, you won't be hearing this guy speak. Republican Convention demonstrators were outside, not inside.

I say he's YOUR president because he does not have the interests of the people, just the interests of those surrounded by him. I would never be allowed near him for fear he may have to hear that we don't actually agree with every piece of crap that comes out of Karl Rove's mouth (you know Karl Rove, the guy who attended a half dozen colleges but never graduated, right?).

So forgive me that I won't be jumping on your little Kool-aid bandwagon but I believe that Bush is nothing but an incompetent puppet.

[post="197812"][/post]​

Yeah, that's right you live in Palm Beach. We all know what a bastion of moral integrity comes out of the wealthy elite that stroll their streets don't we? Make sure you tell Teddy we said hello and remind him Mary Jo could've used his help.
The protesters did manage to get inside the convention center in NYC so once again you only see what you choose to see.
Screening attendees only occurs with THIS President?? You my friend are the kool-aid drinker. You've bought into the illusion drummed up by Wild Bill and Hillary. You believe that people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakan are the religious icons of our time. You believe the Hollywood elite know more about the pulse of our nation than the citizens who live and work out here daily do.
I suggest if you want to talk policy issues with any President you start to word your posts much more carefully. After reading what you post you don't have a hope in hell of EVER meeting any elected official and that includes dog catcher.

 

[BillLumbergh]

You children need to behave.

 

[Fly]

Oh no.....lmao....what should I tell the ones I already do talk to? (Oh shoot, what about the one who lives next door?) I guess I'll just have to ignore them now that you've informed me that I'm not worthy. Get off your high horse.

Note to Moderator....I did not make one personal attack against my fellow posters. It is they that are getting their own heart palpatations up. Do you suppose it's some sorta pseudo-homo love thing for Bush?

 

[Hopeful]

Would you let Teddy Kennedy give your daughter or wife a lift?

 

[AgMedallion]

Just for the fun, could you please quote the parts in Kerry's testimony that support your interpretation? And dont do a chop job like the swift vets, please show the statments in thier full context. In fact, why dont you just provide a full and annotated verson? If you feel strong enough about it you will try, but in the end you wont because the words john kerry spoke that day will never suport you interpretation. You can hate Kerry for comming out against the war, but dont distort his testimony cause of that.

[post="197697"][/post]​

Well you're wrong..in the end I will provide a full and annotated version, but you won't like the source ( http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12920 ). Here's another source you won't like either: ( http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp ). But they're Kerry's words minus the Carrville/Begala/McAuliffe/you-name-the-blame-america-firster spin.

April 18, 1971 -- John Kerry and Al Hubbard appear on NBC's "Meet the Press" to allege widespread atrocities by U.S. soldiers in Vietnam. Hubbard is introduced as a former Air Force captain who had spent two years in Vietnam and was wounded in action. Kerry seems to admit to committing war crimes, saying, "There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages."

April 18 - 23, 1971 -- Operation Dewey Canyon III. More than a thousand VVAW members stage an "invasion" of Washington D.C., where they hold memorial ceremonies, meet with sympathetic members of Congress, camp on the Mall, perform "guerilla theater" -- re-enactments of atrocities against civilians, complete with fake blood -- on the Capitol steps and in front of the Justice Department, and hold a candlelight march around the White House carrying an upside-down American flag. At the end of the six-day event, a number of the veterans throw military medals and ribbons over a fence in front of the Capitol in a gesture of contempt. Many shout obscenities or threats against the government. The protests receive enthusiastic coverage in the communist Daily World newspaper on April 20th (Part 1, Part 2), 21st (Part 1, Part 2), 23rd (Part 1, Part 2), and 24th (Part 1, Part 2). Later in 1971, Kerry and the VVAW will publish The New Soldier, a book of essays and photographs documenting the event.

April 22, 1971 -- John Kerry testifies on behalf of the VVAW before the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs. He claims that American soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan..." and that these acts were "not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." Kerry also accuses the U.S. military of "rampant" racism and of being "more guilty than any other body" of violating the Geneva Conventions, supports "Madame Binh's points" when asked to recommend a peace proposal, and states that any reprisals against the South Vietnamese after an American withdrawal would be "far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America."

April 22, 1971 -- The NBC Nightly News reveals that Al Hubbard had not been an Air Force Captain, as he claimed, but a staff sergeant E-5. A later investigation of Hubbard's military records shows that he was never assigned to Vietnam. *****************************************************************
Because I'd rather not clutter up this thread with voluminous material, click on the citations above for more info.


It's odd that all those swiftboat vets (as well as millions of other concerned vets, both those who served in Nam and those, like myself, who didn't), can read and hear Kerry's testimony (as well as those of his cohorts at the time, like Jane Fonda) and come up with the same interpretation while folks like you, perhaps because that interpretation is incompatible with your political leanings, can somehow divine the true intent of Kerry's testimony. Sort of like "it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is." Simpletons that we are, we just take words and sentences at their face value. 🙄

 

[AgMedallion]

Incidentally, although I wasn't in the VVAW, I do know that those who joined were required to prove their service there, usually by presenting their discharge papers.

I wonder what kind of proof Al Hubbard, cited above, provided? :huh:

Now that the election is over, I hope that we can now finally put the Vietnam War to rest.

Perhaps it was unwise for Kerry to open up that can of worms to begin with. Showcasing his Vietnam service at the Democratic Convention was not a good idea, but given his Senate record, perhaps the lesser of two evils. Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind as the Bible says. Though I'm not the least bit religious (contrary to what some in this thread think about Bush supporters), that part of the Bible seems particularly appropriate to describe the results of Kerry's decision.

 

[sentrido]

Well you're wrong..in the end I will provide a full and annotated version, but you won't like the source ( http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12920 ). Here's another source you won't like either: ( http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp ). But they're Kerry's words minus the Carrville/Begala/McAuliffe/you-name-the-blame-america-firster spin.

April 18, 1971 -- John Kerry and Al Hubbard appear on NBC's "Meet the Press" to allege widespread atrocities by U.S. soldiers in Vietnam. Hubbard is introduced as a former Air Force captain who had spent two years in Vietnam and was wounded in action. Kerry seems to admit to committing war crimes, saying, "There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages."

April 18 - 23, 1971 -- Operation Dewey Canyon III. More than a thousand VVAW members stage an "invasion" of Washington D.C., where they hold memorial ceremonies, meet with sympathetic members of Congress, camp on the Mall, perform "guerilla theater" -- re-enactments of atrocities against civilians, complete with fake blood -- on the Capitol steps and in front of the Justice Department, and hold a candlelight march around the White House carrying an upside-down American flag. At the end of the six-day event, a number of the veterans throw military medals and ribbons over a fence in front of the Capitol in a gesture of contempt. Many shout obscenities or threats against the government. The protests receive enthusiastic coverage in the communist Daily World newspaper on April 20th (Part 1, Part 2), 21st (Part 1, Part 2), 23rd (Part 1, Part 2), and 24th (Part 1, Part 2). Later in 1971, Kerry and the VVAW will publish The New Soldier, a book of essays and photographs documenting the event.

April 22, 1971 -- John Kerry testifies on behalf of the VVAW before the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs. He claims that American soldiers had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan..." and that these acts were "not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." Kerry also accuses the U.S. military of "rampant" racism and of being "more guilty than any other body" of violating the Geneva Conventions, supports "Madame Binh's points" when asked to recommend a peace proposal, and states that any reprisals against the South Vietnamese after an American withdrawal would be "far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America."

April 22, 1971 -- The NBC Nightly News reveals that Al Hubbard had not been an Air Force Captain, as he claimed, but a staff sergeant E-5. A later investigation of Hubbard's military records shows that he was never assigned to Vietnam. *****************************************************************
Because I'd rather not clutter up this thread with voluminous material, click on the citations above for more info.
It's odd that all those swiftboat vets (as well as millions of other concerned vets, both those who served in Nam and those, like myself, who didn't), can read and hear Kerry's testimony (as well as those of his cohorts at the time, like Jane Fonda) and come up with the same interpretation while folks like you, perhaps because that interpretation is incompatible with your political leanings, can somehow divine the true intent of Kerry's testimony. Sort of like "it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is." Simpletons that we are, we just take words and sentences at their face value. 🙄

[post="197956"][/post]​

I knew you couldn't.

 

[markkus757]

Fly - get a clue. Are you trying to tell me that if you don't graduate college that you're not smart? Why don't you tell that to Richard Branson or Bill Gates? The disbelief that you show amazes me. You want to remain in denial about the election, fine by me. But remember this, HE won by a majority as well as the electoral college. He is not out of touch, you are.

 

[AgMedallion]

I knew you couldn't.

[post="197986"][/post]​

The truth hurts, doesn't it? Suffer for another four years, then the Republicans will defeat whatever Blame America Firster the Dems put up (probably Hillary because you guys still haven't gotten the message).

 

[The Dissident]

Fly - get a clue. Are you trying to tell me that if you don't graduate college that you're not smart? Why don't you tell that to Richard Branson or Bill Gates? The disbelief that you show amazes me. You want to remain in denial about the election, fine by me. But remember this, HE won by a majority as well as the electoral college. He is not out of touch, you are.

[post="198000"][/post]​

And remember Clinton never won by a plurality of the popular vote only by the electoral college. Same way bush did in his !st term when those liberal liars were claining that Bush stole the election. Although he did win by florida by 537 more votes than gore but he stole the election. Yea right

 

[Fly]

Did I say he didn't win? WOW, you right wingers sure have trouble reading.

 

[sentrido]

The truth hurts, doesn't it? Suffer for another four years, then the Republicans will defeat whatever Blame America Firster the Dems put up (probably Hillary because you guys still haven't gotten the message).

[post="198026"][/post]​

Dont change the subject, just do as I asked or admit you can't.

 

[NWA/AMT]

I wonder what kind of proof Al Hubbard, cited above, provided?

[post="197961"][/post]​

A DD-214, altered to reflect what he pretended to be.

Perhaps it was unwise for Kerry to open up that can of worms to begin with.

That particular can was opened back in '92, and not by Kerry. Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind, I guess.



Just a few thoughts on the statements you posted with some of what John Kerry said when he was in the VVAW:

I was in Vietnam for three tours with the US Marines totalling 33 months, all of it in combat units, and would have completed the full 39 months if I hadn't been evacuated to Japan due to wounds received and reassigned to the US as part of the troop withdrawls. In those 33 months saw rapes, I saw civilians shot, I most certainly saw ears taken - indeed, it was the only proof that one of our commanders would accept for kills claimed - and I fired on civilian villages when ordered to do so. I saw these things, and others, done by both sides, us and the NVA. Indeed, I saw far worse done by the NVA to their own people than anything I saw done by US forces.

All of these things were violations of the Geneva Convention regarding the conduct of military forces in war. The Geneva Convention is a laudable document, actually a series of documents, but I knew then, as I know now, that the things I saw and did were a part of war. It is a dehumanizing experience by its very nature, and quoting laws while fighting one, particularly one such as Vietnam, is ludicrous. When it comes down to a choice of 'you or them', there's no doubt that you will do anything and everything to make sure it's 'them'. When you see enough of your friends killed and maimed, you become willing to do things you would never think of doing back home in 'civilized' society. Our all-purpose catch-all saying for anything bad that happened was "F@&k it, it don't mean nothin'", and we meant it.

Looking back from middle age, I wish that I hadn't seen or done any of it, but I did. However, I'm not going to pretend now that it didn't happen or that anyone who served there and says it did is somehow slandering those who served. Those who served in Vietnam were honorable, regardless of what they may have done, particularly in light of the nature of the war in which they served. We lost over 60,000 of our finest citizens there and anyone who served there deserves our respect, regardless of whether we agree with them now or not.

When my sons were growing up and asked me about the war, I initially told them very little about what it was like. Later, when they were older and made it clear they wanted to make the Corps their careers, I told them more but made it clear how and why such things happened and that they didn't necessarily have to happen the way they did. They're both Marines, and now both combat veterans as well, and have both made it clear that they now understand what I meant. I hope they were able to learn from the things that I told them and are better Marines because of it. I do know that pretending it never happened certainly wouldn't have helped.

It's time BOTH parties put the Vietnam war to rest and time for veterans on both sides to say that we're tired of having it dredged up every four years for political purposes. While we veterans may never agree on what happened or didn't happen there, I hope that we can at least agree on that.

 

[AgMedallion]

A DD-214, altered to reflect what he pretended to be.

Exactly. So your statement that all members of VVAW were required to prove their service in Vietnam, while undoutedly true, means nothing in reality, so long as there are dishonest people willing to lie and cheat to get their way.

That particular can was opened back in '92, and not by Kerry. Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind, I guess.

AFAIK, the swiftboat vets group didn't even exist in '92. Their website, http://www2.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=FAQ , states the reason why they have campaigned against Kerry:

5. Vietnam was a long time ago. Why does it matter today?

Senator John Kerry himself made his Vietnam service a centerpiece for his campaign for the Presidency, so questions about his service are germane. Senator Kerry’s biographer described Kerry’s total Vietnam experience as a “three-decade-long tour of duty,” so questions about his entire “tour of duty” are germane. And in his testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, John Kerry stated that his fellow Vietnam veterans were guilty of widespread atrocities, so questions about the veracity of those charges are germane.

It's time BOTH parties put the Vietnam war to rest and time for veterans on both sides to say that we're tired of having it dredged up every four years for political purposes. While we veterans may never agree on what happened or didn't happen there, I hope that we can at least agree on that.

Thank you for your military service (and your son's service) to our country. As I had stated before, just because a person is a liberal doesn't mean they never served their country, e.g. George McGovern, Jimmy Carter, John F. Kennedy. However, Kerry is the one who showcased his Vietnam service and that's why Swiftboat vets came into being. They're entitled to express their opinion of Kerry's fitness for duty as Commander-in-Chief based on their personal observations of the man's military service 35 years ago and his record in the early 70s after that service. I can see why he chose to emphasize that service in an effort to shine the spotlight away from his senatorial record in which he voted against weapons programs and in favor of cuts in our intelligence assets. But IMHO, it was a tactical blunder because he didn't count on the sh*tstorm of criticism from the many Vietnam vets who were enraged at his anti-war activities. Also from the POWs who were tortured to testify falsely to crimes which Kerry freely offered up in his VVAW days. While some posters on this thread might think that those vets and POWs are clueless idiots who can't fully understand Kerry's testimony, the facts of that testimony remain. Do you think there's some "vast right wing conspiracy" which brainwashed those Swiftboat vets, many of whom are Democrats and Independents, into devoting so much time and energy to campaign against Kerry? I doubt it.

As long as the folks like Reps Bonior and McDermott, who march off to Baghdad before the war to, in effect, support Saddam and his torture and rape rooms, or focus solely on misguided GIs who put panties on prisoner's heads while ignoring the terrorists who lop off the heads of innocent people, run the Democratic Party, the Republicans are going to continue to gain ground year after year. When you have the Democratic Party leadership attending the premier of Michael Moore's movie, or have Kerry attend a Radio City Music Hall political rally where Whoopi Goldberg and other Hollywood lefties make disgusting and obscene comments about George Bush and have Kerry say they represent American values, you guys will continue to lose elections. You might think the Bush supporters (or Republicans in general) are dumbass rednecks who can't read or write, but they can read well enough to pull the lever or push the button for the Republicans every Election Day. So continue to be intellectual snobs who look down your nose at Republicans and you'll continue to have your head handed to you year after year. Now who's dumb?