JetguyCLT
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CLT plans Fifth Runway
- Thread starter JetguyCLT
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It reads like a desperation attempt to say "Keep us as a Hub and international airport and we'll give you the moon". I mean come on:
"Orr said the new runway would be longer than the existing runways, allowing for nonstop departures “deep into Europe or the Pacific rim.” ".
Also, $160M for a new from scratch FAA approved 12,000 foot runway ?? Sounds a BIT optimistic. One thing about Orr is that he obviously has strong ties with the Charlotte business community and seems to be a super strong supporter of the community. I'd hope he isn't naive enough to think that if there is a merger, Parker, etal are guaranteed to continue their love affair with CLT.
"Orr said the new runway would be longer than the existing runways, allowing for nonstop departures “deep into Europe or the Pacific rim.” ".
Also, $160M for a new from scratch FAA approved 12,000 foot runway ?? Sounds a BIT optimistic. One thing about Orr is that he obviously has strong ties with the Charlotte business community and seems to be a super strong supporter of the community. I'd hope he isn't naive enough to think that if there is a merger, Parker, etal are guaranteed to continue their love affair with CLT.
I am not sure if it's desperation as much as ego...Everyone thinks Orr is a super star for keeping the costs under 2.00 per passenger, the low costs to the airlines come at a price...Ask any pilot that has to taxi around potholes and cracks so big you could lose a baggage tractor..Ask any ramper that has tripped in a spall and got injured..
Yes, Airtran has two gates from which they fly eight daily departures. That's not a problem. It's that part about WN wanting "at least two more" that's the potential issue. WN tends to fly about 8-10 departures per day per gate on average. That's perhaps up to 40 daily flights with the two FL gates and the "at least two more" that Orr mentioned.
WN has six gates at PHL but a paltry 33 daily flights (well below their 8-10 daily avg per gate). I didn't say that WN's desire for at least four gates at CLT is the end of the world for US, but if you don't see it as an ominous sign, I can't help you. CLT already has about the lowest O&D of any large airline hub, and if WN is able to acquire, say, 10 gates and fly 100 daily departures, that's going to put a hurt on US (or US-AA). Yields don't usually improve when WN comes to town. Traffic goes up, sometimes in a big way, but average fares tend to decline. That's not good.
Sure, 2014 is a looming problem for AA in the DFW region, but that's better discussed in the AA forum. Besides, that problem has been looming for years. Southwest's desire for "at least two more gates" at CLT is a new wrinkle.
wings396
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Check your numbers on PHL again, I assure you that its more than 6. As you know WN bowed out of several markets in PHL that were in direct competition with US. The big cost advantage that WN once had is slowly going away. The costs at US as well as several other airlines have gone down, and those at WN are on the rise closing the gap. WN has started more fires than they can put out. They once fed off the weaknesses of US for growth, therefore targeting mostly their markets. Now they are entering into battle with others, and they will fight back. They have to decide how they are going to handle ATL, and some of the NYC markets where the competition isn't going to lie down for them. In short, it think that your ruh-roh fear factor about them looking for 2 more gates in CLT was a bit of overkill.
BoeingBoy
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Check your unit costs - WN still has a significant cost advantage to US. Sure, US' mainline CASM has gone down but a hub/spoke operation (now more than ever) and the largest RJ operation in the industry raises overall CASM vs WN which has neither.
Jim
Jim
wings396
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That is correct at this point, but WN's are on the rise. It wasn't that long ago that their CEO let it be know to the employees about their creeping labor costs. With WN paying better than just about every other carrier, it's bound to catch up with them as their workforce becomes more senior.
Why would UA & DL go to a satellite concourse along w/ SW when their main ops are on A Con? I could see DL & UA taking the 2 gates that AirTran uses and then move AirTran/Southwest to the satellite concourse... DL is already using A6-A8 for overflow when AirTran isn't using them..And the new walkway will be scaffolding & plywood just like E Con..US & CLT are so similar, small fish who wish to be big fish...
According to Southwest, as of July 20, WN was using six gates:
http://www.swamedia.com/media_storage/city_fact_sheets/PHL.pdf
I admit that I did not fly to PHL to count them. With WN's reductions at PHL, perhaps they relinquished some gates?
US is not immediately doomed simply because Orr told the press that WN wants "at least two more" gates at CLT. You've been on this website since the beginning - recall years ago when various posters (dunno if you were one of them) would occasionally say something to the effect of "CLT isn't vulnerable to WN because there aren't any gates available."
Invariably, ClueByFour would respond that federal law requires airports to find space for new entrants, even WN, and that Orr, the Great Protector of USAir, would eventually be forced to find some space for WN when WN came a'callin. Well, that time is now and Orr is building some space for them (and UA and DL as well). It's not the worst thing that could happen to US, but you can bet that someone in Tempe is not happy about it.
Kelly has screwed up what was once a great growth airline. Messed with the simple Rapid Rewards program. Oversaw the website degrade into a very difficult site to navigate (just too many interweb designer bells and whistles). Paying to enter markets like LGA. Overpaying by billions of dollars to get FL so that WN could have a turn-key small hub at ATL.
But CLT presents an opportunity for WN to return to its roots. It's a very low-cost, delay-free airport. WN begins with a few flights to MDW, BWI, TPA, BNA, ATL, PHL, PHX and LAS, and before you know it, they're growing to perhaps 50-100 daily 737s full of reasonably happy customers. Although WN refuses to call them "hubs," CLT will provide WN with the same hub advantages that the US fans keep saying AA needs so desperately in the Southeast corner of the country. Low-cost airport, relatively delay-free and lots and lots of runways. A lot more runways than enjoyed by most cities twice its size.
wings396
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No, I wasn't one of those as I realize that gates can be had by anyone at some point. I will take a look the next time I go thru PHL, but I know that they have more than half of E Term, and they have consolidated the AT operation with theirs.
BoeingBoy
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Also correct at this point. But US can never eliminate the extra costs of hub/spoke ops, multiple fleet types, and a large RJ operation. Especially if Parker is as successful acquiring AA as you want him to be in your blind faith in his prowess. That labor cost advantage over WN will decrease dramatically. There'll be a price to pay for promising labor and the creditors more than he thinks AA can supply...
Jim
Jim
I don't think WN has been as successful as it wanted to be in PHL. I just read that they are dropping RDU-PHL. At one point they had around 71 flights from PHL and now they're into the 30's, retreating from US strong markets like LAX, PIT and BOS to name a few. As US relies on connecting traffic in CLT, WN will probably find a few direct markets to fly but they won't be to major US strongholds. I envision their "hubs" like MDW, DAL and some leisure routes like LAS and Florida.
