Delta mechanics getting raise again

[Thomas Paine]

Then why doesn't Delta pay what SWA does? Who said that Delta spends 'hundreds of millions" extra?  They pay just enough, coupled with a lot of fear and propaganda, to keep the unions out.
 
As far as 700 why do you say it has to be one or the other? isn't good management being prepared for economic cycles regardless of the cause? They failed in their jobs.

 

[WorldTraveler]

because DL like any business pays the market rate for labor as with any other product or service.

When the legacy carriers went thru BK, some employees left but not huge numbers. Esp. among mechanics, there was a need for fewer of them anyway due to outsourcing.

Part of the justification for AA's low salaries might be that they need to shrink the maintenance workforce over the next few years and so would like to see some of them leave to other carriers.

If there are people who are willing to work for the amount of money a company is willing to pay, there isn't a need to raise the salaries to higher levels.

DL mechanics are seeing increases because the company is doing well and because DL's maintenance costs per ASM are low relative to its peers. DL can afford to give pay raises to its mechanics because they are delivering what the company needs - but that is also true across the board.

Remember also that DL does more in-house maintenance than any other airline except for AA based on 2012 stats. WN is at the high end for outsourcing. UA is well above 50% as well.

And it still doesn't change that the overall trend for DL employees across the board is that their compensation is increasing relative to their legacy carrier peers and to the rest of the industry as well.

as for the comment about failing at their jobs, there is no doubt that 9/11 was a bigger shock to aviation than had ever been seen. 110 story office towers have never fallen anywhere in the world.

That said, you still can't blame either labor or mgmt for what took place but you can hold both responsible for how well they have recovered. 9/11 is now 12+ years ago.

looking at the industry 12 years after 9/11, some airlines and some labor groups have done a whole lot better than others. that is an undeniable fact.

 

[Thomas Paine]

because DL like any business pays the market rate for labor as with any other product or service. If there are people who are willing to work for the amount of money a company is willing to pay, there isn't a need to raise the salaries to higher levels.

And that is why workers need Unions.

I wont bother citing how you contradicted yourself.

The fact is that the two best paid groups of mechanics are Union (SWA and UPS) and Delta mechanics have always benefitted by the actions of Unions at other carriers. Delta doesn't pay the lowest rate they can and still attract employees, they pay the lowest rate they can to prevent their current employees from joining a union. How many Delta mechanics do you actually personally know? My guess-ZERO. I know quite a few and they would agree with me not you as to what motivates their decisions concerning pay..

 

[700UW]

Thomas,

When Judge Mitchell abrogated our contract, he held the abrogation in obeyance and forced the IAM and its members to vote on the final offer that US presented to the court.
 
The membership ratified the POS so we didnt strike, as we voted yes to strike, but the members ratified the final offer, which I voted no on, so the strike was a mute point.
 
Our Bankruptcy counsel was the same as yours, Sharon Levine, we were informed by her and others that Section 1167 of the RLA only applies to Railroads.
 
So bankruptcy law trumps the RLA.
 
Do you know why and how Section 1113 was enacted by Congress?

 

[WorldTraveler]

And that is why workers need Unions.

I wont bother citing how you contradicted yourself.

The fact is that the two best paid groups of mechanics are Union (SWA and UPS) and Delta mechanics have always benefitted by the actions of Unions at other carriers. Delta doesn't pay the lowest rate they can and still attract employees, they pay the lowest rate they can to prevent their current employees from joining a union. How many Delta mechanics do you actually personally know? My guess-ZERO. I know quite a few and they would agree with me not you as to what motivates their decisions concerning pay..

and yet this thread is about unionized AA employees trying to match what DL gets.

No, unionized airline employees need unions that deliver what they pay for.... DL employees pay nothing to be treated far better than their peers.

AA DL UA and US are direct peers. You and 700 don't really want to compare apples to apples because if you do then it becomes very clear that the only way DL's peer airlines fare better than DL is by outsourcing far more than DL.

I didn't say DL pays the lowest. I say they pay the market rate to achieve what they need.

Why doesn't WN or UPS pay 2X what they pay by your logic?

 

[Thomas Paine]

and yet this thread is about unionized AA employees trying to match what DL gets.No, unionized airline employees need unions that deliver what they pay for.... DL employees pay nothing to be treated far better than their peers.AA DL UA and US are direct peers. You and 700 don't really want to compare apples to apples because if you do then it becomes very clear that the only way DL's peer airlines fare better than DL is by outsourcing far more than DL.I didn't say DL pays the lowest. I say they pay the market rate to achieve what they need.Why doesn't WN or UPS pay 2X what they pay by your logic?

DL gets better than some of their peers, not better than SWA or UA, or Fed Ex or UPS. Those are my direct peers, I determine who my peers are, not you. All those mechanics work the same aircraft types and have the same qualifications and liabilities.

Is it true that DL has kids who are A&P school working on their aircraft and they force their mechanics to work with them and sign for their work? Yea just what I want kids with no experience whose work is being signed off by mechanics with no Union protection or ASAP program.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Thomas,

When Judge Mitchell abrogated our contract, he held the abrogation in obeyance and forced the IAM and its members to vote on the final offer that US presented to the court.
 
The membership ratified the POS so we didnt strike, as we voted yes to strike, but the members ratified the final offer, which I voted no on, so the strike was a mute point.
 
Our Bankruptcy counsel was the same as yours, Sharon Levine, we were informed by her and others that Section 1167 of the RLA only applies to Railroads.
 
So bankruptcy law trumps the RLA.
 
Do you know why and how Section 1113 was enacted by Congress?

So in other words the answer is Yes the IAM folded and voted to accept the terms rather than fight them, and their contract was never actually abrogated, that led to another concessionary deal thats still in place today, nearly twelve years after US initially went into BK. What makes you think that Parker wont take US into BK again if he doesn't get what he wants.

BK law trumps the RLA? Are you sure about that?

Yes I'm aware of the History of 1113, it was supposed to protect unions in bankruptcy but subsequent rulings and practices have turned that around, and the Unions have not done a damn thing about it despite collecting millions in COPE funds from their airline members.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Actually there are industry analysts who determine who are direct peers of each other, whether you realize it or not.

You may consider a particular group of companies as peers but each company knows who it must compete against in order to hire qualified people.

Doesn't change that, if you are an AA employee, your peers are looking at what DL employees get and wanting to be in the same boat. That is a fact that you can't debate. No DL employees are starting treads about how they wish they were getting AA mechanic compensation.

Get over the fact that your company (if you are an AA employee), its 10 year long restructuring, and its contentious labor relations have left AA employees as some of the lower paid in the industry.

 

[700UW]

TP,
 
What dont you understand the a Federal Bankruptcy Judge Stephen Mitchell ordered the IAM and its members to vote on the final offer that the company presented?
 
Can you not read and comprehend?
 
The IAM and US/HP negotiated a transition agreement with many increases and improvement that took effect in 2008, the amendable date was 2011 and had an early section 6 opener, and received two raises after the amendable date.

This is the first section 6 negotiations since the 99 CBA.
 
And correct me you at AA and the TWU took concession in 2003 out of chapter 11 and nine years later and you still didnt have a new CBA and AA went into chapter 11.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Yes I understand, and the IAM failed to present any leadership or a plan of action if the members reject the company's demands. YOU KEEP THROWING OUT THAT THE IAM GAVE IN BECAUSE "WE COULD NOT STRIKE", BUT AT THE TIME YOU HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT AS THAT RULING HAD NOT BEEN MADE UNTIL A YEAR AND A HALF LATER AND THERE WAS NOTHING TO SUGGEST THAT, and here you are nine year later earning $5/hr less than non-union Delta that went into C-11 after US.

There you go with the "your union did worse than mine again'. You really are pitifully predictable. Why bother? You are a droid, incapable of learning, comprehension, or reasoning and can only spout out what was programed into you by your IAM handlers. You deserve the deals the IAM got for you. Josh is right, you are one of the reasons why the labor movement is dying in this country. You cant fix Stupid.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Actually there are industry analysts who determine who are direct peers of each other, whether you realize it or not.You may consider a particular group of companies as peers but each company knows who it must compete against in order to hire qualified people.Doesn't change that, if you are an AA employee, your peers are looking at what DL employees get and wanting to be in the same boat. That is a fact that you can't debate. No DL employees are starting treads about how they wish they were getting AA mechanic compensation.Get over the fact that your company (if you are an AA employee), its 10 year long restructuring, and its contentious labor relations have left AA employees as some of the lower paid in the industry.

Guess I hit a nerve with the inexperienced school kids working on Delta's Aircraft under the 'supervision" of non-union mechanics with no ASAP program question because your tone got noticeably nastier and you completely avoided the question. C'mon, you are the all knowing expert on everything Delta, is it true or not?

 

[WorldTraveler]

you hit no nerve.

You want to direct all kinds of attention away from the fact that this thread was started by AA people who are looking at DL mechanic pay rates and want to know why AA's union can't deliver that for AA mechanics.

Since I'm not a DL mechanic, you would have to ask one who is.

Doesn't change that AA mechanics want what DL offers. DL employees are already spending their profit sharing or planning how to - an extra month's salary makes the cold winters a whole not more pleasant. They built a great airline and their company is rewarding them.

AA mechanics want in.

 

[Thomas Paine]

Funny how you come here and say that you know how all the employees feel at Delta as far as being in a Union yet when subjects come up that cast a different light on your precious Delta  all of a sudden you claim ignorance and say you will have to ask an employee. Well I have, wanted to see if you could verify that.
 
We are well aware of why we aren't getting what Delta mechanics get, because AA bought off our top union officials with kickbacks, those people are gone but we are stuck with the deal. Does it make Unions bad, no, we unfortunately had some very bad people in critical positions at the wrong time and we will suffer for it, we will suffer like Non-union workers.
 
I have no doubt that Delta people are already spending their Profit sharing, they are spending it to payoff debts incurred through the concessions that Delta imposed without them having any say in it whatsoever, like back in 2002, prior to any C-11 filing when they just simply did away with the defined benefit pension (which had a 30 year cap on years of service) and later went with some other deal where they deduct Social Security from what Delta pays, not exactly sure but I do know the people we spoke to from Delta were very unhappy with the changes they never even got to vote on. Yes they are spending that money all right, just like I had to spend my first Equity payment which was around two months salary paying off Debts I had due to the concessions we gave, big deal, still doesn't come close to making up what they took. (By the way how much did Delta employees get when the company decided to terminate Retiree medical? -I hear some of our guys may get as much as $90,000-let me guess, you don't know-go ask a Delta worker.) As much as it sucks to have your peers vote away everything its even worse when you have no say whatsoever other than 'there's the door if you don't like it".
 
So yes we do want the pay, but we don't want Delta, not to work for and not on every thread in the AA forum. If you don't believe me ask Chuck Schalk, the guy who started this thread if he would rather work for Delta and see what he says.

 

[AANOTOK]

 (By the way how much did Delta employees get when the company decided to terminate Retiree medical? -I hear some of our guys may get as much as $90,000

Enlighten me...
Subsidized by my match?

 

[700UW]

I know in Section 6 Negotiations the IAM at US is asking for around $38 an hour or so, for a two year bridge agreement before JCBA negotiations.