FA PLOA Proffer Opened 11/11 For 1Jan to 31MAR

[Skymess]

I expect them(AA) to staff the planes with f/as. You say full compliment. Is that maximum coverage, acceptable coverage or minimum crew. Where do you draw the line on someone working on the plane that isn't a f/a. Many thought the "bag assist" people were ok because it was "easier" but easy or not it was a SCOPE violatiion. So you think I'm stiring the pot because it has "always" been done this way...There hasn't been a loss of 6000 jobs in the past and if you don't protect your career now, who will be on the plane next to make it "easier"? How about minimum staffing as f/as, a non f/a speaker, a chef, a trash person, a nurse, a mechanic, all providing "services" that a f/a now provides on any given flight. SCOPE!

When they have the FSDs or speakers on board they are in addition to the FULL crew. There's no job loss there.

If we saved speaker jobs to work these flights than this would be done oustide the seniority list. Are you suggesting that saving speaker jobs out of seniority is better than saving jobs in seniority order? Call me naive, but I thought YOU were all about doing things according to seniority.

 

[nbmcg01]

but aren't you the one who said would be helping AA Management against the Union from presenting a decent contract to the FAs as well?
I don't get it, you want this Byron to keep his job but on the other hand, until the Union gets some kind of strong contract language, which would include SCOPE, and will most definitely help "byron" keep his job, you're helping management against them from achieving it thru any job action they come up with to pressure management, unless the union gives in to your demands of full seniority for TWA? Sounds a lot like extortion to me.

why should people listen to you now?

Chris, I don't really care if anyone listens to me. I have always told it like it is, no more, no less. Your association is doing a fine job of not getting you a decent contract. It (the union) certainly doesn't need any help from me or any other of the members of the Coalition to derail negotiations. My wanting Byron to keep his job speaks to the union having managed to lose over 6000 jobs, and has turned the junior f/a into seasonal help. And as you can see, if it doesn't personally affect the person, the h*** with the rest, as long as it makes work "easier". Over $24,000,000 in lost dues and the good will of other unions. There will other mergers/acquisitions and that is a fact. The APFA continues to operate as an island and its leadership with their heads in the sand. Call it what you want. In this economy you flip those disks...

 

[AAStew]

Nancy, how well did your union protect your jobs? How many were furloughed prior to the purchase of TWA? How much pay did you lose in the last 10-20 years of the company? How many bases were closed? Of the flight attendants who did not lose their jobs, how many were displaced? How much did you have to pay for the privilage of training to be a TWA stew?
Our union leaves much to be desired for, but I think you need to look in the mirror!

 

[IORFA]

Too much hate to see the truth.

 

[nbmcg01]

Nancy, how well did your union protect your jobs? How many were furloughed prior to the purchase of TWA? How much pay did you lose in the last 10-20 years of the company? How many bases were closed? Of the flight attendants who did not lose their jobs, how many were displaced? How much did you have to pay for the privilage of training to be a TWA stew?
Our union leaves much to be desired for, but I think you need to look in the mirror!

1. several hundred
2. I made more money and flew less days and had a 14% 401K deposit (went from Intn FSM (Purser) to Dom. f/a at AA- At AA I went from fairly good pay to $0
3. 1 (by AA) which started out as protected by the original SIA- the second by the allowance of AA f/as to give up their AA certification and be trained as TWA LLC f/as for the purpose of replacing us in a protected base.
4. $0- I was paid while in training (and we were never stews) Ichan started the Travel Academy in '85 and people actually paid, go figure. I always called it a scam school)
5. Both TWA and AA have/had good and bad contractual issues. Too bad the good couldn't be cherry picked from both

$24,000,000 lost in dues is significant if your union is saying the treasury is empty.

This is no longer about TWA as there are only 20 out of 4200 left. This next round will go into the '90s and on and on. No hate, just dismay.

 

[czerny]

This is no longer about TWA as there are only 20 out of 4200 left. This next round will go into the '90s and on and on. No hate, just dismay.
[/quote]

good morning Nancy, thanks for your support of the junior fas. Yes, I'm near the bottom of the seniority list once I return in Dec. i take this job for what it is, until there are additional flights and recalls, the bottom half will be seasonal workers at best. US airlines don't see speakers as an absolute necessity and it's a cultural perspective as much as a financial one. When I non-reved on Malaysia Airlines from KUL to NRT, there were 2 Japanese speakers on board and one of the stewardessess said that they normally have 3 and MAS was doing another "recruitment exercise" in Japan to hire more. Speaking of FSDs, I guess now that DME is cancelled, the FSDs are out of a job? My buddy bidder is a native Creole/French speaker and was approached to work the Port-Au Prince flights out of JFK on "special assignment" but she declined. Here's the case of a union fa asked to work as a speaker on "special assignment".

 

[Bear96]

The Great Jimdini predicts...

There will be furlough of f/as effective 01FEB10. It will be fewer than 500 f/as systemwide, and fewer than 250 f/as will be based in LGA or ORD (and that's 250 each, not together). That way neither the Federal WARN Act nor the state (NY & IL) WARN acts will be invoked. Company only has to give APFA 30 days notice.

Happy New Year all.

Forgive my ignorance, but why would AA be afraid of triggering WARN Act notices?

 

[FA Mikey]

If they stay low enough they can furlough with 30 days notice, if the WARN act number is triggered it requires a 90 day notice.

 

[jimntx]

Slight correction: The Federal WARN act only requires a 60-day written notice. New York and Illinois have state statutes equivalent to the Federal WARN act except they both require a 90-day notice. The trigger for the Federal act is 500 or more employees in a given work classification. The trigger for the state laws is 250 employees in the respective state.

As long as the total number being furloughed is less than 500 and within that 500 there are less than 250 that are based in New York or Chicago, then the company only has to give the APFA a 30-day notice. However, they don't even have to give that in an emergency.

Emergency being defined in the contract as "an act of God, a national emergency, revocation of the Company's operating certificate or certificates, grounding of a substantial number of the Company's aircraft, any strike or picketing causing a temporary cessation of work."

Note that it does NOT say strike or picketing by the APFA or the flight attendants. It says ANY strike or picketing. But, if they wanted to furlough right away, all they would have to do is instruct the non-union gate/ticket agents not to cross the APFA's information picketing lines on the 18th of this month. There you have it. Temporary cessation of work caused by picketing.

Also note, that the definition and duration of temporary cessation was left to the company's discretion.

 

[damajagua]

Forgive my ignorance, but why would AA be afraid of triggering WARN Act notices?

Can someone please explain when does the company has to issue Warn Act notices or just 30 days notice.......I do not understand........please explain..........Thanks

 

[Bear96]

If they stay low enough they can furlough with 30 days notice, if the WARN act number is triggered it requires a 90 day notice.

I understand that. But what is the big deal about a 90-day notice? Or does AA really not plan that far ahead? Surely by, say, Nov. 1, it knows its flight schedule for Feb. 1 - and has been selling tickets for flights on Feb. 1 for some time.

 

[nbmcg01]

I understand that. But what is the big deal about a 90-day notice? Or does AA really not plan that far ahead? Surely by, say, Nov. 1, it knows its flight schedule for Feb. 1 - and has been selling tickets for flights on Feb. 1 for some time.

The big deal is that AA would have to pay salary if proper WARN is not given. The April furlough notice has been disputed because AA tried to say that NY had 3 different bases. ( a reserve can be assigned to all 3 airports). Affected f/as filed the complaint with the NY DOL, the union unfortunately did nothing.

 

[jimntx]

Because they have to pay those people they want to furlough for an additional 60 days. Also, if they have an overage of 400-500 f/as effective January 1, they do not want to announce it before Christmas because those ungrateful f/as (like me) might quit now (or start burning sick leave since we don't get paid for accrued sick leave when we quit, die, retire, or get furloughed) and leave them short-handed for the Christmas season.

So, if they know they have an overage in the first quarter, 2010, they do not want to announce it until after Christmas. If they only have to give the contractual notice of 30 days, they can furlough the overage effective 31JAN10. If they have to give 90 days notice, they can not furlough the overage until 31MAR10. You do know that I am guaranteed 70 hours of flight pay a month (75 hours on reserve months) whether the company needs me to fly or not don't you? So, that is 2 additional months they have to pay me if they have to give 90 days notice.

And, the most important reason of all. They have not announced an overage of f/as. They have announced that leaves of absence are available for 01JAN10-31MAR10. (That's a roundabout way of saying that the overage will only exist for the first quarter.) They want these people (like me) off the payroll as soon after 01JAN as possible because they intend to recall them for some time in the 2nd quarter, 2010 prior to the summer travel season. Just like we have 270 (I think) f/as who were furloughed 30SEP for two months who are to return to work, 01DEC. Thanks to the canny bargaining of the APFA during the 2003 concessions, we now have seasonal furloughs.

It's like the migrant workers in agriculture. You only need those large numbers of employees during the planting and harvesting seasons. You do not want to pay those people year-round.

This is going to start shredding the bottom of the seniority list because a number of f/as at the bottom (like me) have no intention of putting up with (or are able to afford) working only 4-6 months per year. So, those more senior f/as who think of us as only a resource for keeping them off reserve (and furlough fodder) will find themselves back on reserve, and then they will find themselves subject to seasonal furloughs because there will be no one below them on the seniority list.

And, don't think it won't happen. Back in 2003 when the APFA gave up furlough pay (and I don't CARE who actually did it. The BOD, and the members who bothered to vote, approved it), I said that this opened the door for seasonal furloughs. All the senior f/as on this board derided me because I didn't know what I was talking about. "The company would NEVER do that. It's too much trouble. Besides, the APFA would never allow it. " (As if they had any power to stop it. There are holes in our contract you could drive a truck through.) Well, 30SEP09, we got our first seasonal furlough. 31JAN10 (probably) will be our second.

When I was recalled from furlough in November, 2004 and assigned to St. Louis, reserve at St. Louis only went to about 6 years--maybe as high as 8 years some months. (There are a number of currently unhappy f/as at SLT who transferred to SLT from DFW/ORD/LAX to get off reserve. They are back on reserve and having to commute. Not happy.) Well, for the month of November, 2009, reserve at St. Louis went to 18+ years. Reserve backup went to almost 20 years. Now, granted this is due in part to the fact that AA has not hired new f/as during that time, but it is also due to the fact that AA is losing the bottom of the seniority list. In November, 2004, I was approx. 250 from the bottom of the active seniority list. Today, I'm about 115.

SLT (the proper designation for the crew base) is a small base (approx. 350 f/as). If the bottom 20-25 SLT f/as are furloughed (and especially if we don't come back like good little sheep for summer travel season), reserve will start pushing 25 years. Lord only knows what it will be in the more senior bases like LAX and DFW.

Now, there are a number of senior f/as on this board who will take comfort in the fact that the preceding paragraph does not apply to them because they are not based in SLT. "Besides, everybody knows that SLT is closing in 2010." But, that's only because most of them don't bother to think beyond "well, I'm not based there; so, it won't happen to me." Ask some of the DFW f/as where reserve is now most months at DFW domestic. Shredding the bottom of the seniority list will affect ALL bases at some point.

As the Bible says, "Sow the wind. Reap the whirlwind."

 

[nbmcg01]

Because they have to pay those people they want to furlough for an additional 60 days. Also, if they have an overage of 400-500 f/as effective January 1, they do not want to announce it before Christmas because those ungrateful f/as (like me) might quit now (or start burning sick leave since we don't get paid for accrued sick leave when we quit, die, retire, or get furloughed) and leave them short-handed for the Christmas season.

So, if they know they have an overage in the first quarter, 2010, they do not want to announce it until after Christmas. If they only have to give the contractual notice of 30 days, they can furlough the overage effective 31JAN10. If they have to give 90 days notice, they can not furlough the overage until 31MAR10. You do know that I am guaranteed 70 hours of flight pay a month (75 hours on reserve months) whether the company needs me to fly or not don't you? So, that is 2 additional months they have to pay me if they have to give 90 days notice.

And, the most important reason of all. They have not announced an overage of f/as. They have announced that leaves of absence are available for 01JAN10-31MAR10. (That's a roundabout way of saying that the overage will only exist for the first quarter.) They want these people (like me) off the payroll as soon after 01JAN as possible because they intend to recall them for some time in the 2nd quarter, 2010 prior to the summer travel season. Just like we have 270 (I think) f/as who were furloughed 30SEP for two months who are to return to work, 01DEC. Thanks to the canny bargaining of the APFA during the 2003 concessions, we now have seasonal furloughs.

It's like the migrant workers in agriculture. You only need those large numbers of employees during the planting and harvesting seasons. You do not want to pay those people year-round.

This is going to start shredding the bottom of the seniority list because a number of f/as at the bottom (like me) have no intention of putting up with (or are able to afford) working only 4-6 months per year. So, those more senior f/as who think of us as only a resource for keeping them off reserve (and furlough fodder) will find themselves back on reserve, and then they will find themselves subject to seasonal furloughs because there will be no one below them on the seniority list.

And, don't think it won't happen. Back in 2003 when the APFA gave up furlough pay (and I don't CARE who actually did it. The BOD, and the members who bothered to vote, approved it), I said that this opened the door for seasonal furloughs. All the senior f/as on this board derided me because I didn't know what I was talking about. "The company would NEVER do that. It's too much trouble. Besides, the APFA would never allow it. " (As if they had any power to stop it. There are holes in our contract you could drive a truck through.) Well, 30SEP09, we got our first seasonal furlough. 31JAN10 (probably) will be our second.

When I was recalled from furlough in November, 2004 and assigned to St. Louis, reserve at St. Louis only went to about 6 years--maybe as high as 8 years some months. (There are a number of currently unhappy f/as at SLT who transferred to SLT from DFW/ORD/LAX to get off reserve. They are back on reserve and having to commute. Not happy.) Well, for the month of November, 2009, reserve at St. Louis went to 18+ years. Reserve backup went to almost 20 years. Now, granted this is due in part to the fact that AA has not hired new f/as during that time, but it is also due to the fact that AA is losing the bottom of the seniority list. In November, 2004, I was approx. 250 from the bottom of the active seniority list. Today, I'm about 115.

SLT (the proper designation for the crew base) is a small base (approx. 350 f/as). If the bottom 20-25 SLT f/as are furloughed (and especially if we don't come back like good little sheep for summer travel season), reserve will start pushing 25 years. Lord only knows what it will be in the more senior bases like LAX and DFW.

Now, there are a number of senior f/as on this board who will take comfort in the fact that the preceding paragraph does not apply to them because they are not based in SLT. "Besides, everybody knows that SLT is closing in 2010." But, that's only because most of them don't bother to think beyond "well, I'm not based there; so, it won't happen to me." Ask some of the DFW f/as where reserve is now most months at DFW domestic. Shredding the bottom of the seniority list will affect ALL bases at some point.

As the Bible says, "Sow the wind. Reap the whirlwind."

You are only as senior as the number below you allows. I would have been one of the most junior at the protected STI Base with 35 years at the time. I chose to stay on DOM for that very reason. If you don't have souls below, you're junior.

 

[Bear96]

The big deal is that AA would have to pay salary if proper WARN is not given.

Understood - but - I am just not seeing why y'all think than AA cannot give the 90-day notice. Certainly it is planning at least that far ahead for aircraft utilization and staffing needs.