Well, that is the responsibility of the JNC, and trust me, they will figure it out. If they don't, we simply vote 'NO'. I don't think any reserves, both East and West, would vote YES to continue living like we are now.
Flight Attendant Staffing Shortages
- Thread starter FlightChic
- Start date
Well, that is the responsibility of the JNC, and trust me, they will figure it out. If they don't, we simply vote 'NO'. I don't think any reserves, both East and West, would vote YES to continue living like we are now.
Please elaborate. Are they trying to take them away in negotiations? If so, was it sent out in a JNC update that I missed?
hula-flyguy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2005
- 910
- 47
And since it is all about saving the company money, let's just go ahead and replace the f/a's with vending machines.
EXACTLY. Which is why I stated "the bidsheet isn't going anywhere".
Sometimes, as hard as it is, change DOESN'T arrive. After 19 years, I quit waiting for it. Sometimes it's incremental. Hell, the biggest thing to ever happen to East FAs was the ETB, and people complain about it all of the time.
Mr. Finn can want it until Doomsday, but unless he brings a specfic acceptable system to replace it, (and I mean SPECIFIC, no one trusts these people to pick anything decent, how are you enjoying Pref Bid?) that offers seniority, automaticity and flexibility (tall order) why would we give up a known system?
To the West Fa who asked what is it: here's my explanation, predicated on the fact that I rarely use it, and when I do I usually just screw myself up.
Flight attendants Bid a line.
SAP opens (scheduling adjustment period) Flight attendants attempt to swap/ move/ eliminate selected trips from that line.
SAP closes: your line is your line.
Leftover trips are built into Secodary lines. Would-be reserves get these and then aren't on reserve.
Month begins: Bidsheet operates from 8am-12am East coast time the day before the trip. You look at what scheduling has: Option 11, or you hope somebody drops the lovely two day that you want. Upshot, you either give scheduling parameters ie. "Two day in by 1700" or a specific trip (s) Pairings 1, 22, 33 etc. At 12, scheduling starts covering all available trips by seniority. When they finish, you either get your lovely two day or you're left with your original dog three day. Whatever is left, goes to reserves in least time order.
The reason some reserves believe that the bidsheet keeps them on reserve is that if FAs didn't have the bidsheet, they think the open trips would be made into lines, thus turning more reserves into blockholders. The reality is, US no longer has ANY obligation to keep open time available, ie. ALL of the open time left after original bidding could be made into Secdondary blocks any time US wanted to, but they choose not to. Why? Hell if I know. A previous poster cited the anomaly of having one trip starting in May while having a trip flying out of April, and it sits there in her block until she takes out the April trip, that's probably one reason.
The thing is, US could fix it yesterday, but they have never had anyone bright enough to schedule the airline. Bottom line, FAs should not pay for their ineptness with our flexibility.
The ETB operates in a parallel universe at FCFS, and it can be a month or day before. If you made the ETB by seniority having each available trip tagged with an expiration date: ie. Rome on board for 5 days by seniority then goes FCFS, I would accept that as a replacement to the bidsheet as long as it came with money, sick time, vacation, an established vacation matrix, crew meals, specific, negotiated requirements for hotels, a higher reserve value, pay for sick time at the end of my career, better staffing. . .
You get the idea. It's a big ticket item and no one is giving it away, hence, it'll probably be here long after we're gone.
How it will affect the West, frankly it depends on you guys. As I said, I hardly ever use the silly thing, I prefer to SAP wisely, (a monumental effort), as I am never lucky with the Bidsheet. If you're number one in your base, odds are that day the best thing on there will be a wretched one day to Dubuque. It all depends on luck. If you're lucky, the best thing on there will be some lush trip to Hawaii, but what different people view as lush varies.
At any rate, don't think of giving anything away, even if it isn't yours. The company has to pay for it. You guys had your right to a new contract stolen by an arbitrator. Don't let them get ANYTHING else from you.
Hope this helps.
Apologies: it should have said the bidsheet is open 8am-12pm: 4 hours. You can also call them a couple of days before and go on for that day. Nothing like proofreading after the fact.
Chicken or Beef??
Advanced
- Feb 6, 2007
- 167
- 0
Negotiations Update Monday, March 31, 2008
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...
We are continuing to press for improvements to the Reserve Section of the Agreement. Our focus has been to build a Reserve system that works and that addresses Reserve earning potential, flexibility, and quality of work life. For highlights of our Reserve Proposal, please read the February 16th negotiation hotline which can be found at www.afa66.org
...
International Crew Rest Seats- Your JNC has proposed that on any TI flight or flight with an IRO (Inflight Relief Officer- an extra Captain) is onboard, seats will be designated for crew members to rest that recline, are curtained, placarded and where flight attendants may eat, sleep, watch video, read during their breaks. East language provides crew rest seats on TI flight longer than 7 hours of block and West language provides a seat on flights longer than 8 hours of block. The bottom line is that when pilots get crew rest seats- flight attendants should get them as well!
This will effect us during the winter when DUB/MAN/LGW/LHR are not staffed with IRO. Year round this will affect us with SNN possibly GLA and DUB.
Before someone bashes me for being petty. It's not the seat. It's the fact that they are changing our concessionary agreement for the worse.
I hope they don't mess with any of the snapback language that takes effect in 2012.
sharonstoneseat
Advanced
Looking at this from a present day airline ecomonic scenario, lineholder flexibility is going to be reduced no matter what.
A analogy.....Your husband or wife is self employed and all month long works when and where they feel like and you scramble to pick up the slack. Now your mortgage has doubled in the last year (fuel prices). Wouldn't you insist that your partner either start either contributing more time at work or give up some costly hobbies (i.e Bid Sheet and DPU systems and scheduling personnel to handle it, or maybe medical benefits if you insist on being a part time person).
It is delusional if we think that the status quo will continue or that lineholders will get increased flexibility with the predictions for the industry this year. It was a great ride and as a flight attendant , I would have loved to have spent some time as one of those folks who could work 40 or 120 hours and change my schedule all month long spontaneously. As a business person, I can see that the "Golden Age" is over and that I will need a KISS system of scheduling and other cost reductions such as, not having to print tens of thousands of bid sheets with built lines that cover my operations and then my personnel fool around with it all month creating the need for secondary systems, increasing schedulers time and paid personnel sitting around being paid without working.
Think about the future in those terms. The airline has to stay afloat during bad times again. Fuel is the highest cost and not contollable , labor cost are second and are controllable. We all know that we don't want give up pay or vacation so guess where your contribution HAS to come from.
I don't like it but I understand it and I suggest that you make your plans accordingly.
Why do YOU constantly insult the profession of Flight Attendants? I bust my ass off every week as a reserve out in Vegas commuting from Anchorage...Surely you know it's a hassle commuting on the West Coast while Dougie and Scooty is cutting capacity out East and West...
Sure put in Vending Machines but the FAA MANDATES THAT WE ARE HERE for the Passengers S A F E T Y!
If you truly are sick of the profession...QUIT! GO SOMEWHERE ELSE...WORK FOR SOUTHWEST if you are going to constantly preach to the choir...GUESS WHAT...it's falling on Deaf Ears!!!
Takes No Prisoners in Vegas!
N965VJ
Veteran
O rly?
Did you see that US1 from PHL call me a Coke-Slinging douchebag? I’m here to save your ass not, I repeat not, kiss it!
[/quote sharonstoneseat, post 67]Looking at this from a present day airline ecomonic scenario, lineholder flexibility is going to be reduced no matter what.
Says who? The scheduling/ bidding system may look drastically different, and the bid sheet may or may not be here in its current form, but I still expect lineholders (and reserves!) to have flexibility in their schedules under the new system. Our JNC knows that flexibility is one of the main reasons we do this job. They are certainly not going to negotiate it away.
[/quote] A analogy.....Your husband or wife is self employed and all month long works when and where they feel like and you scramble to pick up the slack. Now your mortgage has doubled in the last year (fuel prices). Wouldn't you insist that your partner either start either contributing more time at work or give up some costly hobbies (i.e Bid Sheet and DPU systems and scheduling personnel to handle it, or maybe medical benefits if you insist on being a part time person).
In your analogy, if times are tough at home, of course one would have to start working more. There should be a system in place where a FA is able to work as much, or as little, as he or she would like. It's like that at many airlines. It's called flexibility.
If you are referring to employees "picking up the slack and working harder for the company", we have, 3 separate concessionary times, since 2001. You knew that right? I am assuming you are saying this contract makes us "lazy" and we need to step up, offer more, and work harder? Wow, you would've thought our previous contracts were a cake walk then!
[/quote]It is delusional if we think that the status quo will continue or that lineholders will get increased flexibility with the predictions for the industry this year. It was a great ride and as a flight attendant , I would have loved to have spent some time as one of those folks who could work 40 or 120 hours and change my schedule all month long spontaneously. As a business person, I can see that the "Golden Age" is over and that I will need a KISS system of scheduling and other cost reductions such as, not having to print tens of thousands of bid sheets with built lines that cover my operations and then my personnel fool around with it all month creating the need for secondary systems, increasing schedulers time and paid personnel sitting around being paid without working.
Wow, you're just ready to give it all back, aren't ya? I didn't realize as a Reserve in Philly that I was living through the "Golden Age" of aviation! Thanks for clarifying. I'll strut my stuff a little harder next time I walk thru the concourses in my uniform. We got it gooood!
Seriously now, what does flexibility in a schedule have to do with current world economics? It's all in what you negotiate, the bid sheet is a high cost item, and if Finn wants it gone, he is gonna have to pay for it. Classic bargaining, not concessionary bargaining. Might turn out that what we want in exchange for the bid sheet might not be worth it to him, and the bid sheet, in some form, stays. Everything in our contract has a price tag, and if Finn doesn't meet that price or go higher, we keep that item. It's simple: This is not a concessionary contract. If it becomes the 4th concessionary contract since 2001, we vote NO. According to JNC, it will not.
Now, you speak of automating things such as trip sheets and scheduling functions in the above paragraph, and I am all for that. Just because we automate (I'll believe it when I see it), doesn't mean any of the flexibility (sap, sec lines, etc) has to go away. Other airlines have been much more computerized and automated for years; USAir always seemed to have had no interest.
[/quote]Think about the future in those terms. The airline has to stay afloat during bad times again.
DP et al have said time and time again that we have prepared very well for this downturn, and are parking planes after the summer season because of the rising fuel costs. They (as well as I, dont get me wrong) see the current environment, and are reacting accordingly. That has nothing to do with my contract. We are already the industry bottom feeder with regards to pay and work rules, and I still fully expect gains at the bargaining table so everyone, from senior to junior, employed as a FA is able to prosper financially. I'm realistic, and I am also deserving of a livable contract. We're through giving back.
[/quote]Fuel is the highest cost and not contollable , labor cost are second and are controllable. We all know that we don't want give up pay or vacation so guess where your contribution HAS to come from.
Sure . I'll guess. Management bonuses? Not it? I give up. One thing I can tell you, it is certainly not coming at the expense of my pay check or work rules. May I ask if you are from the west, Sharon? Because FA's here on the east signed (to my chagrin) 3 concessionary contracts with USAir since 9/11. They took, and took, and took, and we happily watched pay and work rules trot right out the door, time after time, never to be seen again. Promises of pref bidding to ease reserve hardship were scoffed at later on, and never materialized. LTO was supposed to work "like a dream" with Pref bidding. Yah, right. We were left with what we have today: A reserve group that is eligible for Federal Aid, and not one single person in management cares. Now, our reserve idle hands is not for a lack of wanting to work, it is because the system does not let us work. So, tell me again where the contribution you speak of HAS to come from?
I'll also add that you are quick to say you want to keep pay and VAC, but sell work rules right down the river, which is the biggest mistake you could make. I've said it before, once those work rules and rigs are negotiated away, you will never get them back. Ever. Pay can be negotiated back, work rules? Not so much. That said, it's no matter, because we're through giving back.
[/quote]I don't like it but I understand it and I suggest that you make your plans accordingly.
Oh don't worry, I will. I plan on reading JNC updates, attending meetings, picketing, striking, whatever it takes. It scares me that you are ready to sit back and give more after all that we have given. I hope you are in the minority. We've given enough.
Says who? The scheduling/ bidding system may look drastically different, and the bid sheet may or may not be here in its current form, but I still expect lineholders (and reserves!) to have flexibility in their schedules under the new system. Our JNC knows that flexibility is one of the main reasons we do this job. They are certainly not going to negotiate it away.
[/quote] A analogy.....Your husband or wife is self employed and all month long works when and where they feel like and you scramble to pick up the slack. Now your mortgage has doubled in the last year (fuel prices). Wouldn't you insist that your partner either start either contributing more time at work or give up some costly hobbies (i.e Bid Sheet and DPU systems and scheduling personnel to handle it, or maybe medical benefits if you insist on being a part time person).
In your analogy, if times are tough at home, of course one would have to start working more. There should be a system in place where a FA is able to work as much, or as little, as he or she would like. It's like that at many airlines. It's called flexibility.
If you are referring to employees "picking up the slack and working harder for the company", we have, 3 separate concessionary times, since 2001. You knew that right? I am assuming you are saying this contract makes us "lazy" and we need to step up, offer more, and work harder? Wow, you would've thought our previous contracts were a cake walk then!
[/quote]It is delusional if we think that the status quo will continue or that lineholders will get increased flexibility with the predictions for the industry this year. It was a great ride and as a flight attendant , I would have loved to have spent some time as one of those folks who could work 40 or 120 hours and change my schedule all month long spontaneously. As a business person, I can see that the "Golden Age" is over and that I will need a KISS system of scheduling and other cost reductions such as, not having to print tens of thousands of bid sheets with built lines that cover my operations and then my personnel fool around with it all month creating the need for secondary systems, increasing schedulers time and paid personnel sitting around being paid without working.
Wow, you're just ready to give it all back, aren't ya? I didn't realize as a Reserve in Philly that I was living through the "Golden Age" of aviation! Thanks for clarifying. I'll strut my stuff a little harder next time I walk thru the concourses in my uniform. We got it gooood!
Seriously now, what does flexibility in a schedule have to do with current world economics? It's all in what you negotiate, the bid sheet is a high cost item, and if Finn wants it gone, he is gonna have to pay for it. Classic bargaining, not concessionary bargaining. Might turn out that what we want in exchange for the bid sheet might not be worth it to him, and the bid sheet, in some form, stays. Everything in our contract has a price tag, and if Finn doesn't meet that price or go higher, we keep that item. It's simple: This is not a concessionary contract. If it becomes the 4th concessionary contract since 2001, we vote NO. According to JNC, it will not.
Now, you speak of automating things such as trip sheets and scheduling functions in the above paragraph, and I am all for that. Just because we automate (I'll believe it when I see it), doesn't mean any of the flexibility (sap, sec lines, etc) has to go away. Other airlines have been much more computerized and automated for years; USAir always seemed to have had no interest.
[/quote]Think about the future in those terms. The airline has to stay afloat during bad times again.
DP et al have said time and time again that we have prepared very well for this downturn, and are parking planes after the summer season because of the rising fuel costs. They (as well as I, dont get me wrong) see the current environment, and are reacting accordingly. That has nothing to do with my contract. We are already the industry bottom feeder with regards to pay and work rules, and I still fully expect gains at the bargaining table so everyone, from senior to junior, employed as a FA is able to prosper financially. I'm realistic, and I am also deserving of a livable contract. We're through giving back.
[/quote]Fuel is the highest cost and not contollable , labor cost are second and are controllable. We all know that we don't want give up pay or vacation so guess where your contribution HAS to come from.
Sure . I'll guess. Management bonuses? Not it? I give up. One thing I can tell you, it is certainly not coming at the expense of my pay check or work rules. May I ask if you are from the west, Sharon? Because FA's here on the east signed (to my chagrin) 3 concessionary contracts with USAir since 9/11. They took, and took, and took, and we happily watched pay and work rules trot right out the door, time after time, never to be seen again. Promises of pref bidding to ease reserve hardship were scoffed at later on, and never materialized. LTO was supposed to work "like a dream" with Pref bidding. Yah, right. We were left with what we have today: A reserve group that is eligible for Federal Aid, and not one single person in management cares. Now, our reserve idle hands is not for a lack of wanting to work, it is because the system does not let us work. So, tell me again where the contribution you speak of HAS to come from?
I'll also add that you are quick to say you want to keep pay and VAC, but sell work rules right down the river, which is the biggest mistake you could make. I've said it before, once those work rules and rigs are negotiated away, you will never get them back. Ever. Pay can be negotiated back, work rules? Not so much. That said, it's no matter, because we're through giving back.
[/quote]I don't like it but I understand it and I suggest that you make your plans accordingly.
Oh don't worry, I will. I plan on reading JNC updates, attending meetings, picketing, striking, whatever it takes. It scares me that you are ready to sit back and give more after all that we have given. I hope you are in the minority. We've given enough.
Does anyone from the company or union have an EXACT figure on what the bid sheet supposedly costs? I know there is a lot of speculation but I've never seen it in writing. Maybe it's not as much as some think it is. Also, wouldn't automation cut the cost? Just asking.
hula-flyguy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2005
- 910
- 47
Wow, all this coming from a 3 poster? Hardly qualifies you to say I constantly insult the profession of FA.
That being said, if you will look at the post I responded to, you just MAY be able to figure it out.
QUOTE (HP_JACK @ Apr 7 2008, 08:36 AM)
Ok. I see how it is concesionary now. SO LET'S CASH IT IN!. This bid sheet is crazy. Its time we replace these schedulers with computers
Now settle down, and enjoy your commute
USCREW
Veteran
Twicebaked
Veteran
- May 22, 2003
- 1,788
- 18
N965VJ
Veteran
Do you mean that fuel costs being shouldered by the employees? Show me another industry that does that.
Or we could just anesthetize the customers.
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