Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[Kev3188]

DL never promised anyone that was hired in a less than full-time capacity that they would be full=time

never.

This statement is patently misleading.

part of the reason why you and the labor movement keep losing votes is because DL hasn't created expectations of something that won't happen.

As is this one.

 

[Kev3188]

your lack of understanding of the free market system is stunning.

No such thing as a "free market."

and it is nothing short of hypocritical for you or Kev or any other topped out employee to be whining about the system that has allowed you to make far more than those who are below you, even as FT employees.

If you want fair, then let's eliminate all of those steps in pay and the increase in vacation and benefits that comes with seniority.

This circular logic makes no sense.

 

[Airlinelifer]

Each one of the active posters on this site that are currently employed by airlines, want thier employer to do well financially, provide a safe travel experience for their customers and for their employers to invest in their workforce. 
 
Having said that, I remember back when when I joined the IAM in 1984 and was paid $12.44 per hour (off the street with 5 year top-out) as a FT ramper with paid medical/ pension.  Their was no PT in our contract. 
 
In 2014 a new employee has no knowledge of the benefits we had in the early 1980's and the airlines would like to keep it that way.
Limited knowledge  =  low expectations.
 
How many airlines were competeing at that time to put that passengers butt on your metal?  How many regional, national and large carriers competeing back in 1984?
 
Now were down to 3 legacies AA, UA, DL and a domestic powerhouse SW, and some are still defending managements decisions about RR's.  If management at these airlines had their way they would contract out every ramp position at every airline in the U.S.
 
In 2008, the 3rd largest airline in the U.S. was D E L T A, and DL was down to 15 ramp stations in 2008.

 

[Kev3188]

If they hadn't have merged with NW, would they have cut more? What would have stopped them from doing what NW TRIED to do, rampers in hubs only.

Nothing, of course...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Each one of the active posters on this site that are currently employed by airlines, want thier employer to do well financially, provide a safe travel experience for their customers and for their employers to invest in their workforce. 
 
Having said that, I remember back when when I joined the IAM in 1984 and was paid $12.44 per hour (off the street with 5 year top-out) as a FT ramper with paid medical/ pension.  Their was no PT in our contract. 
 
In 2014 a new employee has no knowledge of the benefits we had in the early 1980's and the airlines would like to keep it that way.
Limited knowledge  =  low expectations.
 
How many airlines were competeing at that time to put that passengers butt on your metal?  How many regional, national and large carriers competeing back in 1984?
 
Now were down to 3 legacies AA, UA, DL and a domestic powerhouse SW, and some are still defending managements decisions about RR's.  If management at these airlines had their way they would contract out every ramp position at every airline in the U.S.
 
In 2008, the 3rd largest airline in the U.S. was D E L T A, and DL was down to 15 ramp stations in 2008.

that's all nice but you fail to acknowledge that there is a market for labor services.

Kevin seems to think it is dead unless of course he benefits from it.

The simple fact is that there are people who are willing to work for the wages that DL pays.

there is a market for DL rampers and AA pilots.

 

[Airlinelifer]

WT, you posted that, "The presence of a less permanent level of workers thruout DL's operation is precisely why Delta has had fewer layoffs than other network carriers."
 
So hiring these RR workers and then laying them off is ok? They work the same flights, work the same aircraft, essentially the only thing differing them from a senior employee is.......time (and lack of benefits). This is one of the prevailing issues when I converse with the new hires, the difference of the way all employees were benefited back in the day compared to now.
 
My hope is that one day all non-benefited positions will be fully benefited.

 

[WorldTraveler]

except that DL isn't laying them off.

DL is using them for fewer hours. and can create schedules so that some employees don't work during very slow months.

you can cling to the unionized system all you want but DL people are smart enough to realize that DL has the flexibility to staff its operation more efficiently - to the benefit of all involved.
e
trying to force a unionized system with FT employees that aren't needed for much of the year will only result in less pay for everyone.

you can wish all you want but as long as there are major peaks and valleys in demand in the airline industry - and there are - it makes sense for staffing to match it.

the unionized system doesn't do that. DL's system does. and they find people who are willing to work for the pay/benefits DL offers.

while you and others collect HIGHER paychecks precisely because there are people who make less.

If you really care about those who make less, you would donate a chunk of your salary to those who don't have as much.

how much of your salary do you give away?

 

[Airlinelifer]

Your answer reflects your lack of knowledge when it comes to day to day staffing for ramp operations.
 
A manager tells a RR, "We need you to stay for: late arrivals, weather, MX delay, sick call, etc, etc."
 
What does a RR employee say? YES (99% of the time,  you want to be a team player, right?). 
 
They reach thier hours limit and get called into the office. Management will say, " You should have managed your hours more effectivley, see you in a couple of months." Out the door they go. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

sorry, but it was obvious from the beginning that the schedule did not necessitate needing employees to stay for months on end.

that is why the RR program works.

you know full well - or if you don't you clearly pay no attention to the world - that there are times when flights are full and, guess what, those are also times when FT employees want to take vacation.

again, you as a FT employee whine about a system that has allowed YOU to benefit far more than if DL had the same payroll in FT employees - which would mean less staffing, less opportunity for you to get off when you want.

Your sympathy for the lowly is touching.

proof of your sympathy will come when you give them your pay and benefits.

 

[Airlinelifer]

I've been showing the RR's your posts, too bad I can't print their responses.
 
Thats the difference between you and I, youv'e got yours, retirement and all the benefits that came while you were employed, tough luck to everyone else.
 
I've taken plenty of vacation even when we had less than 5 RR's on the payroll, didn't make a difference.

 

[robbedagain]

Airlinelifer   you really bring up very valuable truth points  and facts    the worst part is  that retired buffoon will never see the reality of that   RR sucks    no benes   on call (if you will)   sucks to be them.   But I would never expect a former dl revenue mgmt. to grasp it    he has never been able to grasp union related matters and his posts prove it all regardless of what he claims

 

[Airlinelifer]

WT, your confusing FT employement with BENEFITED employement.  The RR's want benefits, and to get the benefits a PT position would have to be available and then the PT ramp employee could "pick up" hours to make up the difference between PT and FT hours (if he or she choose to work the extra hours)..
 
If you worked here you would see the frustration that is brewing amoungst the rampers. 
 
FT's staying employed longer because of the frozen pension, we have older employees (+60 y.o.) not retiring.
 
PT's not moving up to full time because open positions are being filled with RR's, and PT's then transferring to other stations hoping that it improves, to be stuck in the same situation.
 
And RR's not moving up to a benefited position because the ramp stations have not met the 50% benefited/50% non benefited ratio.

 

[Kev3188]

WT, you posted that, "The presence of a less permanent level of workers thruout DL's operation is precisely why Delta has had fewer layoffs than other network carriers."
 
So hiring these RR workers and then laying them off is ok? They work the same flights, work the same aircraft, essentially the only thing differing them from a senior employee is.......time (and lack of benefits). This is one of the prevailing issues when I converse with the new hires, the difference of the way all employees were benefited back in the day compared to now.
 
My hope is that one day all non-benefited positions will be fully benefited.

+1
 
 

except that DL isn't laying them off.

DL is using them for fewer hours. and can create schedules so that some employees don't work during very slow months.

They just cut them for weeks/months at a time, during which they collect UI benefits...

you can wish all you want but as long as there are major peaks and valleys in demand in the airline industry - and there are - it makes sense for staffing to match it.

...Except that's not really how they're being utilized anymore. That may have once been true. Now they're defacto PT employees with 5x5 (or similar schedules).


 

Your answer reflects your lack of knowledge when it comes to day to day staffing for ramp operations.

...And that's it in a nutshell...

 

[WorldTraveler]

WT, your confusing FT employement with BENEFITED employement.  The RR's want benefits, and to get the benefits a PT position would have to be available and then the PT ramp employee could "pick up" hours to make up the difference between PT and FT hours (if he or she choose to work the extra hours)..
 
If you worked here you would see the frustration that is brewing amoungst the rampers. 
 
FT's staying employed longer because of the frozen pension, we have older employees (+60 y.o.) not retiring.
 
PT's not moving up to full time because open positions are being filled with RR's, and PT's then transferring to other stations hoping that it improves, to be stuck in the same situation.
 
And RR's not moving up to a benefited position because the ramp stations have not met the 50% benefited/50% non benefited ratio.

and you still don't get that DL has NEVER guaranteed that a part-time employee would be given FT employment. and DL has hired PT, non-benefitted employees for decades.

The title has changed but the concept has existed for decades, long before deregulation and long before the DL/NW merger.

all this conversation proves is that you and other NW people came along convinced you knew better than DL and its own people what was good for them.

They have handedly told you via the ballot box that DL does have a system that works for the employees.

and you also don't seem to get that you and other FT employees would not be receiving near as much in compensation and benefits if DL were to use the system you propose. You and Kev and weAAsles don't seem to realize that there are limits to what a company will spend on payroll. DL's percentage of payroll is very comparable to total cost levels as other airlines. How the payroll expenses are divided up is different than at other airlines - to the benefit of DL's FT employees.

If order for DL to create the system you want, you would have to give up your OWN pay and benefits.

it is precisely for that reason that UA's rampers voted to cut the number of FT jobs and stations in order to keep pay and benefits among existing FT employees.

again, you are the ones that benefit the most from a system that you want to change.

 

[southwind]

Each one of the active posters on this site that are currently employed by airlines, want thier employer to do well financially, provide a safe travel experience for their customers and for their employers to invest in their workforce. 
 
Having said that, I remember back when when I joined the IAM in 1984 and was paid $12.44 per hour (off the street with 5 year top-out) as a FT ramper with paid medical/ pension.  Their was no PT in our contract. 
 
In 2014 a new employee has no knowledge of the benefits we had in the early 1980's and the airlines would like to keep it that way.
Limited knowledge  =  low expectations.
 
How many airlines were competeing at that time to put that passengers butt on your metal?  How many regional, national and large carriers competeing back in 1984?
 
Now were down to 3 legacies AA, UA, DL and a domestic powerhouse SW, and some are still defending managements decisions about RR's.  If management at these airlines had their way they would contract out every ramp position at every airline in the U.S.
 
In 2008, the 3rd largest airline in the U.S. was D E L T A, and DL was down to 15 ramp stations in 2008.

Err...the reason there are less airlines is there was too much metal in the air, flying half empty and you cannot keep a company in business selling $39 round trip tickets.