Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[700UW]

Just like how DALPA and DL have good relationship.
 
You truly dont understand the RLA and Section 6, do you understand what CHAOS is?
 
DALPA got a CBA easily and a 20% raise in from June of 2012 till the end of last year while non-union ACS and FAs some got 3%  while others got 4%  per year.  No where near what a unionized group received.
 
Proof is in the CBA.
 
Not  your clueless attitude of what will happen or wont, you been gone over eight years, its not Your Delta anymore.
 
You dont work in Labor Relations and have no clue what will be in a new CBA.
 
What you dont realize is 12,000 DL FAs signed cards for a change and to have representation and a CBA.
 
And DL cant impose terms they have to NEGOTIATE and the FAs get to vote and decide on their CBA, not being an employee at will anymore.
 
Your coming apart.

 

[topDawg]

I'm not making any threats to anyone.

"Delta FAs will pay if they join a union" 

That is a threat. Now is a meaningless threat but a threat. 

because it is absolutely true that DL is under no obligation to continue locking DL FA salary increases and benefits to other non-contract employee groups.

WT you live in a world full of stupid if you think that 
1) Delta isn't going to come to a good agreement, professional agreement, that includes yearly pay raises with the pilots, dispatchers and FAs(if they join) when they are making money like they are. Anderson has already stressed how important it is to have union and non-union employees on the bus.
2) Delta is going to punish the FA group for joining a union. They haven't done so with any other work group and wont start now.
3) Expect Delta to just do anything they wish with the FA group. As much as you hate it (because you hate labor) that is the point of a Union. Delta wont be able to just do whatever.     
 

I would never expect the truth on that reality to come from you or any of the pro-union propaganda pushers on this board but DL FAs will have to negotiate a new agreement with DL mgmt. and, as Josh notes could very easily include terms which are different from what DL offers now AND what is different from what DL's competitors include in their CBAs.

I will never expect you to learn any business, economic, management, labor relations sense.
Or the basic ability to read and comprehended English. 
You and Josh are so far over your head, and yours is from 100% butt hurt that the FAs would get the cards, it is sad. I honestly feel sorry for you at this point. 
 

IF FAs at other airlines have to be treated the same as other employee groups at the same airline, then you wouldn't have all of the backstabbing between labor groups that goes on at AA and UA - and which are documented on a minute by minute basis on this website.

Where? OTHER AIRLINES. 
United isn't Delta. 
American isn't Delta. 
 
What makes Delta Delta is the fact that they can work with all the work groups, union or not, to come to fair agreements. You don't understand that because you were a part of trying to destroy Delta Air Lines, not build it up. What Leo taught you is not the real Delta. 
 
you really should become an AA fan boy. You would fit in much better. Most of them hate labor just like you do. 
 

This website is THE BEST advertising of the cutthroat, competitive labor environment that will take place between DL FAs and other DL labor groups because that is the environment which LABOR UNIONS themselves propose.

This web site has one FA. 
 
And I am pretty sure Meto, Me, Kev and Baba are all in the same boat in that we want all of us to do well. Union or no union. 
 
If Kev gets a raise and I don't then good for him. I don't need to me too. I make enough money. I'm happy. If those guys and gals can better themselves then right on. 
 
Meto is a great example, I have no issue with him or any other pilots. They have some things better than us. Do I get angry or blame him? No his union is doing its job. 
 

DL has made it clear in the past that when the non-pilot workgroups have tried to unionize, DL will do everything possible to benefit those who stay non-union.

Under Richard Anderson, not the idiots who were running the show while you were there, but under Richard Anderson give me an example of this.  
 

To believe that the same thing won't happen again or that the FAs will continue the wins that they have accumulated under the DL direct relationship is nothing short of naïve.

WT You have no idea if the FAs have wins or not. Give me 5 Delta FA work rules that don't have anything to do with base pay or profit sharing. 
now do so for AA. 
 
You can't because you have no friggin idea what you are talking about. 
 

I know you are living vicariously thru the FA election but there isn't even a hint of an election in maintenance which should tell you out of place you are with your coworkers.

As I said about two pages ago(and 34573058374589037590 other times). I don't want a union. You don't want to believe, are to stupid to understand it or just ignore the fact but I could honestly completely and totally 100% not muster an ounce of give a crap if they vote in a union or not. It literally means nothing to me.
 
All I want to see is everyone vote. Union, not union whatever I hope every single FA takes the time to vote. As I just said, I do not know enough about the FA work group, their work rules and benefits (and in comparison to other airlines) to know if they are better off or not without a union. Unlike you I don't talk just to talk. I have no opinion on this because I am not educated on the FA QOL to say what I would or would not do. 
 
All I can do, is point out all the misinformation, stupidity and fear pushing that you constantly push. I hope that anyone who reads what you write about Delta and labor understands that you have no idea what you are talking about. 
 

GO be an FA and you can help the IAM win the election.

WT about the only reason I would hope the IAM would win is just to watch you melt down. 
 
but unlike you and josh this isn't a game and I am not a child. So I just hope each FA makes the right choice for them based of off FACTS and not fear. (and VOTES!) 
 
 
Hey Kev, 700, or anyone else who knows quick question, this is for WT cause he clearly can't get it, Do I want TechOps to vote in a union? 

 

[topDawg]

Just like how DALPA and DL have good relationship.
 
You truly dont understand the RLA and Section 6, do you understand what CHAOS is?
 
DALPA got a CBA easily and a 20% raise in from June of 2012 till the end of last year while non-union ACS and FAs some got 3%  while others got 4%  per year.  No where near what a unionized group received.
 
Proof is in the CBA.
 
Not  your clueless attitude of what will happen or wont, you been gone over eight years, its not Your Delta anymore.
 
You dont work in Labor Relations and have no clue what will be in a new CBA.
 
What you dont realize is 12,000 DL FAs signed cards for a change and to have representation and a CBA.
 
And DL cant impose terms they have to NEGOTIATE and the FAs get to vote and decide on their CBA, not being an employee at will anymore.
 
Your coming apart.

This. 
 
FAs do not worry, If you vote in a union Delta will work quickly to come to a contract. They do not want to drag out section 6 for longer than they have too. The reason Delta wants to come to a quick CBA to get any questions out of the operation. DALPA will likely end up with an early contract just because of the above. 
 
WT is just pushing fear because he is upset that you you have rights. He would prefer Delta tell you how to live your life. 

 

[700UW]

You have stated numerous times that you dont want a union.

 

[700UW]

http://youtu.be/GqgOvzUeiAA

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

"Delta FAs will pay if they join a union" 
That is a threat. Now is a meaningless threat but a threat. 

WT you live in a world full of stupid if you think that 
1) Delta isn't going to come to a good agreement, professional agreement, that includes yearly pay raises with the pilots, dispatchers and FAs(if they join) when they are making money like they are. Anderson has already stressed how important it is to have union and non-union employees on the bus.
2) Delta is going to punish the FA group for joining a union. They haven't done so with any other work group and wont start now.
3) Expect Delta to just do anything they wish with the FA group. As much as you hate it (because you hate labor) that is the point of a Union. Delta wont be able to just do whatever.     
 

I will never expect you to learn any business, economic, management, labor relations sense.
Or the basic ability to read and comprehended English. 
You and Josh are so far over your head, and yours is from 100% butt hurt that the FAs would get the cards, it is sad. I honestly feel sorry for you at this point. 
 

Where? OTHER AIRLINES. 
United isn't Delta. 
American isn't Delta. 
 
What makes Delta Delta is the fact that they can work with all the work groups, union or not, to come to fair agreements. You don't understand that because you were a part of trying to destroy Delta Air Lines, not build it up. What Leo taught you is not the real Delta. 
 
you really should become an AA fan boy. You would fit in much better. Most of them hate labor just like you do. 
 

This web site has one FA. 
 
And I am pretty sure Meto, Me, Kev and Baba are all in the same boat in that we want all of us to do well. Union or no union. 
 
If Kev gets a raise and I don't then good for him. I don't need to me too. I make enough money. I'm happy. If those guys and gals can better themselves then right on. 
 
Meto is a great example, I have no issue with him or any other pilots. They have some things better than us. Do I get angry or blame him? No his union is doing its job. 
 

Under Richard Anderson, not the idiots who were running the show while you were there, but under Richard Anderson give me an example of this.  
 

WT You have no idea if the FAs have wins or not. Give me 5 Delta FA work rules that don't have anything to do with base pay or profit sharing. 
now do so for AA. 
 
You can't because you have no friggin idea what you are talking about. 
 

As I said about two pages ago(and 34573058374589037590 other times). I don't want a union. You don't want to believe, are to stupid to understand it or just ignore the fact but I could honestly completely and totally 100% not muster an ounce of give a crap if they vote in a union or not. It literally means nothing to me.
 
All I want to see is everyone vote. Union, not union whatever I hope every single FA takes the time to vote. As I just said, I do not know enough about the FA work group, their work rules and benefits (and in comparison to other airlines) to know if they are better off or not without a union. Unlike you I don't talk just to talk. I have no opinion on this because I am not educated on the FA QOL to say what I would or would not do. 
 
All I can do, is point out all the misinformation, stupidity and fear pushing that you constantly push. I hope that anyone who reads what you write about Delta and labor understands that you have no idea what you are talking about. 
 

WT about the only reason I would hope the IAM would win is just to watch you melt down. 
 
but unlike you and josh this isn't a game and I am not a child. So I just hope each FA makes the right choice for them based of off FACTS and not fear. (and VOTES!) 
 
 
Hey Kev, 700, or anyone else who knows quick question, this is for WT cause he clearly can't get it, Do I want TechOps to vote in a union?

Delta would never interfere or taint the laboratory conditions:

NMB Orders New Elections For Delta Air Lines Flight Sim Technicians

By Eddy Metcalf


"August 15, 2010 - Following a unanimous ruling earlier this week that Delta Air Lines illegally interfered with a representational election for Flight Simulator Technicians at Delta Air Lines, the National Mediation Board (NMB) has scheduled a rerun election to begin on August 25, 2010.

Prior to scheduling the new election, the Board determined that laboratory conditions for a fair election were tainted when Delta promised pay raises for non-union workers. The Board described as "troubling" the timing of Delta's pay raise announcement - made on the first full day of voting in the Sim Tech election."

"The IAM also contended that a Delta supervisor promised to change work schedules to grant more weekends off so as to mirror what the PMNW Sim Techs receive under their contract with the IAM. In addition, the Organization argueed that Delta prematurely used seniority integration committees to offer Sim Techs more favorable seniority integration than the IAM?s standard methodology of straight seniority.

The IAM alleged instances of discriminatory treatment which include denying a union representative access to Atlanta break rooms, and allowing the distribution of a petition during work hours which stated that the Sim Techs were properly part of the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class in an effort to prevent an election.

Further, the IAM alleged that a Delta Supervisor conducted one-on-one meetings designed to influence junior Sim Techs not to vote for the IAM. There was also an allegation that a Delta Supervisor conducted surveillance outside of a Tech Storage Room with the intent of discouraging employees from talking about the benefits of a union contract."

http://avstop.com/news_august_2010/nmb_orders_new_elections_for_delta_air_lines_flight_sim_technicians.htm

"Other carrier misconduct which has resulted in re-run elections or special election procedures includes threats...laying off workers,...and making benefit increases or withholding increases during the election period.44"

 

[topDawg]

Delta would never interfere or taint the laboratory conditions:

NMB Orders New Elections For Delta Air Lines Flight Sim Technicians

By Eddy Metcalf


"August 15, 2010 - Following a unanimous ruling earlier this week that Delta Air Lines illegally interfered with a representational election for Flight Simulator Technicians at Delta Air Lines, the National Mediation Board (NMB) has scheduled a rerun election to begin on August 25, 2010.

Prior to scheduling the new election, the Board determined that laboratory conditions for a fair election were tainted when Delta promised pay raises for non-union workers. The Board described as "troubling" the timing of Delta's pay raise announcement - made on the first full day of voting in the Sim Tech election."

"The IAM also contended that a Delta supervisor promised to change work schedules to grant more weekends off so as to mirror what the PMNW Sim Techs receive under their contract with the IAM. In addition, the Organization argueed that Delta prematurely used seniority integration committees to offer Sim Techs more favorable seniority integration than the IAM?s standard methodology of straight seniority.

The IAM alleged instances of discriminatory treatment which include denying a union representative access to Atlanta break rooms, and allowing the distribution of a petition during work hours which stated that the Sim Techs were properly part of the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class in an effort to prevent an election.

Further, the IAM alleged that a Delta Supervisor conducted one-on-one meetings designed to influence junior Sim Techs not to vote for the IAM. There was also an allegation that a Delta Supervisor conducted surveillance outside of a Tech Storage Room with the intent of discouraging employees from talking about the benefits of a union contract."

http://avstop.com/news_august_2010/nmb_orders_new_elections_for_delta_air_lines_flight_sim_technicians.htm

Not saying that Delta isn't going to do everything they can do to prevent the FAs form joining an Union (or the IAM wont do everything they can to get the FAs in a union) 
 
I am saying that after the dust settles, if the FAs join a union, then Delta will work with them quickly to get to a CBA. Delta will try very hard to have the same type of relationship with the IAM that they have with the pilots and the dispatchers.
 
 
I know Delta's tricks very well. Like I said, I am sure the FAs, and the rest of the company, will get plenty of propaganda over the coming weeks.   
 

You have stated numerous times that you dont want a union.

Thank you. 
I am pro-labor. 
 
but I have no interest in a union. Biggest issue I have with Delta is the outsourcing. (and the health care side too but I understand the other factors going along with it.) Other than that I am happy, but the mechanics are probably the best treated work group at Delta. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL FAs don't want a union.

they want more money and better work rules.

every job has work rules. they could all be better, including at DL.

As long as DL is willing to shell out money to keep various workgroups non-union and spend less than if they actually had a union, they would do so.

let's also toss out the possibility that it is now possible that with profit sharing as large as it is, DL is willing to let the FAs unionize and then cut profit sharing for everyone. A lot of pilots fear it will get cut anyway. Perhaps the cost of trying to outpay unionized employees is more than DL wants.

it is also possible that DL does not fear the effects of unions as much as it once did because the industry has consolidated as much.

pure speculation but the big 4 are increasingly looking very similar - with the difference being that DL runs a better operation that is better at generating revenues. that could well be maintained by paying employees just average wages.

If DL decides that it can get what it wants without spending over a billion dollars extra on profit sharing, it will do so. It's all about the Benjamins.

if that's the case, then it is absolutely possible that DL will spend less on employee compensation than it does now given that DL has tried to keep its non-contract employees paid as well as they do.

the pilots get paid well at Dl because they work well with the company. The same principle applies to WN. DL obviously gets what it wants from its non-union employees. playing well with the company is not a union vs. non-union thing. Giving the company what it needs to succeed is the difference.

and it is also very possible that DL will keep its pilots higher paid relative to its peers while allowing non-pilot salaries to sink to the industry average.

it will indeed cost DL employees to be a part of a union - or all of the assertions that some here including Kev have made that DL pays its employees well to keep out the unions is false.

 

[700UW]

DL FAs don't want a union.

they want more money and better work rules.

every job has work rules. they could all be better, including at DL.

As long as DL is willing to shell out money to keep various workgroups non-union and spend less than if they actually had a union, they would do so.

let's also toss out the possibility that it is now possible that with profit sharing as large as it is, DL is willing to let the FAs unionize and then cut profit sharing for everyone. A lot of pilots fear it will get cut anyway. Perhaps the cost of trying to outpay unionized employees is more than DL wants.

the pilots get paid well at Dl because they work well with the company. The same principle applies to WN. DL obviously gets what it wants from its non-union employees. playing well with the company is not a union vs. non-union thing. Giving the company what it needs to succeed is the difference.

Are you a DL FA?
 
You left DL over eight years ago.
 
You took the money and ran, and now your obsessed with what happens at DL.
 
And I beg to differ, at least 12,000 CURRENT DL FAs want a union.
 
They want a CBA with rules that cant be changed at anytime.
 
A former Leo Mullin's idol worshiper has no clue on what REAL CURRENT DL FAs want or dont want.
 
Your gone, or are you conducting a poll in your galley chats of all 20,000 DL FAs?
 
Your getting desperate.

 

[WorldTraveler]

given that your basic facts are wrong, the rest of your rant is equally as disconnected.

and once again you try to argue that regardless of when I left DL, you have more insight and right to speak for the DL FAs than I do.


totally false.

to even suggest that I worshipped Leo Mullin is the height of union deception. You are the best example the DL FAs need for what they get when they vote for the IAM. Your footloose handling of such a statement is typical of union leadership. You fit perfectly with them.

I have NEVER said anything good about Leo. Never. I have said his mgmt. era was the worst DL ever had. No DL employee would say differently.

you are a paid union organizer. there are government documents that show that.

DL FAs need to weigh everything you say with that reality. Your desperation is in trying to convince them that you look out for their interests when it is clear that you and your union friends will benefit at the expense of DL employees' pocketbooks.

 

[700UW]

I am a paid organizer?

That's funny then why am I working events?

I worked from June of 2013 till September of 2014 on the IBT raid against the IAM at US.

Haven't received a penny since unlike you who hides his compensation to post here.

And 12,000 DL FAs want a union, that's a fact.

Must suck to have such butt hurt.

And your threats about what DL will do is the poster child for the FAs to vote yes.

Clueless you are.

 

[WorldTraveler]

you have been paid as a union organizer.

that is a fact.

the butt hurt is in recognizing that I can honestly say that about you but your charges against me are false.

I am not threatening anything.

If DL has been paying a premium to its non-union employees to stay non-union, then they are not going to continue paying a premium if they are unionized.

was Kevin wrong all along?

 

[700UW]

So explain how DL's unionized pilots are paid a premium?

 

[WorldTraveler]

because they work with the company to give the company a premium over their peers. same thing is true with WN's employees.

I said that already.

Kev has said for years that DL pays a premium to its people to keep the unions out. was he wrong? If the unions are in, why would they continue to pay a premium?

 

[700UW]

Sure it has nothing to do with being unionized and have a CBA.
 
Why did the pilots receive a 20% raise from June of 2012 to December of 2014, while the non-union DL employees only received 6% or 8%?
 
Why does DL have three different pay scales for ACS and FAs, bet yet the Unionized Pilots only have one Pay Scale?
 
Why dont all the employees at the same steps in their career at DL earn the pay for the same job?
 
Why does DL not staff their BW fully with their own people?
 
Why are their vendors doing ACS work where mainline DL people are staffed?
 
And you clearly dont understand its not all about the pay, QOL is just as important.