Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[WorldTraveler]

and yet you trash the pilots for caving on scope. and since you read that pilot forum, you do realize that most that at least post there are not optimistic that they will get fully compensated for the scope violations, even though that is what they want.

And you know what, when Anderson is waving a new contract with double digit pay raises in front of them that applies to all pilots and they keep saying "but what about the scope violations" (which only applies to a subset of the pilots), the scope violation will be forgotten about.

and it doesn't really matter whether it is the NMB or the IRS that is holding up labor integration, it is the members who are paying for the bureaucracy of two unions and it is Doug Parker who is indeed benefitting by having lower labor costs.

I suspect at some point the natives will start getting restless at the excuses that the unions and the government can't figure out to integrate so the "men in the trenches" can get their pay increases.

 

[topDawg]

and yet you trash the pilots for caving on scope. and since you read that pilot forum, you do realize that most that at least post there are not optimistic that they will get fully compensated for the scope violations, even though that is what they want.

This is the only forum I am a part of, any news I get with the pilots are from pilots (er well mostly a pilot)
Having said that, I also expect ALPA to fail here.....its all they do.
but again, I do expect Delta to follow its contracts. Just like we all know you would be screaming from the roof tops if they pilots started doing whatever they wanted to do...... 
 

And you know what, when Anderson is waving a new contract with double digit pay raises in front of them that applies to all pilots and they keep saying "but what about the scope violations" (which only applies to a subset of the pilots), the scope violation will be forgotten about.

Only a fool thinks that this international scope only applies to some.

First, the senior group risks less flying
second the junior group risks even more stagnation than what they are seeing now.
So yes, it means something to everyone on the list.
 

and it doesn't really matter whether it is the NMB or the IRS that is holding up labor integration, it is the members who are paying for the bureaucracy of two unions and it is Doug Parker who is indeed benefitting by having lower labor costs.

but it does matter who is doing the holding up. You can't blame the union for what the government is doing.
Blaming the IAM/TWU for the NMB delay at AA is just as stupid as blaming the IAM for the delay in the vote at Delta.

Once the union and company do their parts then its up to the .gov to get things done. Sadly the NMB is just like the rest of the .gov




basically useless.
 

I suspect at some point the natives will start getting restless at the excuses that the unions and the government can't figure out to integrate so the "men in the trenches" can get their pay increases.

I'm sure they are already sick of it. Better start reaching out to the elected officials.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and yet DL has the highest average pilot compensation of the big 3 and DL pilots have the highest average benefits package of all airlines, including WN.

so the notion that ALPA has failed is only a dream of those who think that if a union isn't fighting, it isn't being effective.

and yes, the complications of having two unions trying to represent one group are enormous and if either the TWU or IAM was interested in getting the best for members, they would simplify the process so that the votes could go forward. but given that neither group is willing to lose members or revenue, they are going to tie up everything that involves their workgroups so that the members suffer.

Parker is indeed having a field day over the complications of having 2 unions trying to represent one workgroup.

 

[700UW]

Two unions representing one group has worked out just fine in the airlines (CWA/IBT), railroads and many other industries.

You are clueless once again.

 

[700UW]

 

[WorldTraveler]

Two unions representing one group has worked out just fine in the airlines (CWA/IBT), railroads and many other industries.

You are clueless once again.

actually, I do get it.

If it is so easy, then there should be a resolution pretty soon.

Let's see how long before there is a joint contract. I think it will be a long ways off.

 

[topDawg]

and yet DL has the highest average pilot compensation of the big 3 and DL pilots have the highest average benefits package of all airlines, including WN.

so the notion that ALPA has failed is only a dream of those who think that if a union isn't fighting, it isn't being effective.

and yes, the complications of having two unions trying to represent one group are enormous and if either the TWU or IAM was interested in getting the best for members, they would simplify the process so that the votes could go forward. but given that neither group is willing to lose members or revenue, they are going to tie up everything that involves their workgroups so that the members suffer.

Parker is indeed having a field day over the complications of having 2 unions trying to represent one workgroup.

As I have told you before but you just can't understand 
 
 
You can get paid all the money in the world but if you don't have a job, it doesn't matter what your pay rate is. 
 
and before you even say it, being a new hire on the 717 in NYC is not the same as holding a line on the 7ER, 330, 765, 777 in whatever base you want. This scope change, according to ALPA is worth 9 rounds trips daily 333 DTW-AMS. That is a lot of flying, a lot of bumping up that could be done. 
 
(or nothing could be done but AF/KL/AZ would have to pull back that much flying.) 
 
You still, and I guess wont, ever grasp that PAY is just one stat that goes into QOL. 

 

[Kev3188]

...Which is précisely why trying to explain it is an exercise in futility...

 

[topDawg]

...Which is précisely why trying to explain it is an exercise in futility...

Yeah i guess thats the old definition of insanity thing..... 

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, the only insanity is for simpletons like you to gullibly believe what ALPA says without doing the most basic fact checking.

Do you have any idea how many flights DL operates across the Atlantic each day? Even in the peak summer season, DL operates less 80 flights/day to Europe outside of the UK because most of the LHR flying is operating under the VS JV. Further, DL's average seat size in the peak summer - when 757s are used - is 243 seats per flight.

Even considering the seasonal difference in schedules, ALPA's claim of DL needing to add 9 333 flights/day doesn't pass the most basic reality check.

But given that you and Kev and the rest of the "DL is out to screw us crowd" will believe anything that says that DL is wrong, then you wouldn't come close to knowing how many seats DL really needs to add.

Given that even the ALPA people have said DL is missing the JV balance by 2% on an annualized basis, the number of flights DL would have to add is less than 2 flights/day.

but hey, sensationalism demands inflating the number by 4-5X even if anyone with a brain can recognize that 9 flights is more than 10% of DL's daily flights during the peak season and a 333 holds 50 passengers more than DL's average aircraft size.

Further, given that DL is hiring more pilots than probably any other airline outside of the ME3 and is adding more capacity than any other US airline, then it is really hard to argue that DL pilots are being screwed, esp. given that they are already the highest paid of any US pilots except for WN and have the highest benefit package in the US.

So, no, spare us the histrionics and dramatic data which anyone with the smallest kernel of brain cell can see isn't anywhere close to being accurate.

Does the company need to abide by agreements it signs? yes.

Does the company need to fix the imbalance when it exists? yes

Is the company anywhere close to to being out of balance like you claim because you copied what a few pilots wrote? Not even close.

and when ALPA's claim of the violation is as badly distorted as you say it is, then it is no surprise that the company "blows off grievances" because they quite frankly are riddled with errors.

And of course it is futility trying to get the two of you to actually look at facts instead of feasting on your preconceived notions.

 

[Kev3188]

I rest my case.

 

[WorldTraveler]

then you would likely lose if you were arguing before any semi-objective body.

I have never argued that scope doesn't matter.

I have never argued that and every other company should comply with its scope requirements.

What you and dawg want to refuse to acknowledge is that ALPA is an entity that is interested in getting as much as it can regardless of whether it is what was agreed to or not.

ALPA is simply not entitled to any where near 9 additional 333s worth of TATL flying - unless it is done for a couple months at best.

and further, what you and dawg don't want to admit is that DL has indeed grown its network both domestically and internationally far more than the 1-2% miss on the AF/KL JV.

The reason why grievances like this won't get settled is because they hold the company to a narrow standard that doesn't measure how well DL's network has grown only to find fault with one little element of DL's network.

DL has added and will add longhaul widebody capacity to its Latin and Asian networks that aren't part of any JV ALPA requirement. The notion that DL pilots are suffering because of a 1-2% AF/KL JV imbalance is completely unsupported by every other statistic.

Further, DL has added more capacity to both its domestic and int'l networks than its competitors.

When a union and union apologists like you want to pick a fight over one line while failing to consider what has been accomplished elsewhere, you create the contentious labor-mgmt. that has been the norm in so much of the legacy sector for so long - and which has resulted in less gain for unionized employees than DL employees have experienced.

 

[700UW]

Clueless, Neville Chamberlain

 

[WorldTraveler]

because only the IAM could preside over the dismantlement of jobs and call it success, such as UA.

DL and DALPA have an agreement that has resulted in growth and benefit to DL pilots.

To try to characterize it any other way is the only thing that is clueless.



When DL's networks - both domestically and internationally have grown faster than its peers at AA and UA - and when DL pilots salaries and benefits have grown faster, it is very hard to argue that some people simply want to find gnats on the back of camels while failing to recognize the gains that DL pilots have seen.

correct the JV balance to reflect the inclusion of AZ which is the only reason the DL-AF/KL/AZ balance changed? yes.

recognize that DL has added far more capacity outside of the JV and outside of any JV than what was lost in the AF/KL JV, absolutely.

Punishing a company for taking a business positive move that has simultaneously resulted in more financial benefit for DL pilots?

precisely the kind of things that unions have done which have resulted in more pain to their represented employees.

 

[700UW]

A contract is a legal and binding agreement under a federal law, you are a coward and anti-worker if you think a union shouldn't stand up for its members and enforce the CBA that Delta agreed too.

And you are truly uneducated, educate yourself on what a DFR is