Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[topDawg]

Another great post dawg.

And in regard to US the IAM didn't allow outsourcing like the company does now, it took two chapter 11 filings and a contract abrogation for it to happen.

They tried to farm out 10 planes after the first bankruptcy only to lose the arbitration case as our CBA didn't permit it.

After our CBA was abrogated did they gain the right to outsource in the 2008 transition agreement the IAM was able to gain scope back where 50% of billable hmv hours must be done in-house and through both bankruptcies the IAM held onto all line maintenance, U.S. can't farm that out.

But since when does WT let the facts and truth get in the way of his misinformed postings?

Just FWIW the trade unions have cleared the road to more and more outsourcing. Instead of living in the 1950s the trade unions need to come into 2015 and figure out ways to bring more work in-house. the US IAM should have been fighting for a hell of a lot more than just 50% of HMVs.


having said that, WT doesn't understand what he is talking about. Calling Airframe work "low value" is a joke. Airlines all over the world do it. Matter of fact the world's largest MRO is.........................an airline. (and German at that, they probably have harder labor/environment/safety laws than we do. A French delta friend also has a huge airframe arm and again, the French aren't known for low labor costs)

and believe it or not, the big US MROs like AAR do a far job of pay and such, they will work you to death however.

 

[700UW]

It wadnt section 6 negotiations and before that they had unlimited outsourcing.

Plus HP farmed out most c-checks and everything above a C thanks to the teamsters.

 

[WorldTraveler]

the hypocrisy in your posts is notable

despite the fact that you have repeatedly stated you are not pro-union, you post here about your experience in the representation campaigns you have worked.

despite the fact that you tout the airframe overhauls that other carriers worldwide do inhouse, you can't counter that DL's direct US peers have sent and are sending more and more airframe overhauls out of the company, including WN who has done it for decades and yet you repeatedly hold them out as the gold standard and AA which is sending work out of the company that has been done inhouse. Apparently, having the highest rate of outsourcing among the big 4 doesn't matter or is ignored by you despite the fact that DL actually does insourcing work which no other US carrier does to a large enough degree to affect the economics of their own maintenance operation.

yes, I am fully aware that the facilities and equipment to support engine and component maintenance is complex - but as southwind noted, DL couldn't do its airframe overhauls entirely inhouse if it wanted to - and neither could any other airline... they simply do not have the facilities any more to do it. and the economics do favor DL doing "higher value" engine and component maintenance inhouse not just for DL but on an MRO, whether you want to admit that work is higher value or not.

and given that carriers like WN and B6 have been sending airframe overhauls out for years, you have to ignore all economic principles in order to think that DL can justify can do something its competitors do not and also to a standard which you do not hold them to.

as for donations, the DOL disclosures are quite clear where the money comes from. It isn't donations.

DL FAs didn't buy the donuts which is what I said years ago.


and of course the ultimate hypocrisy is your acknowledgement that unions have allowed airlines to outsource more and more maintenance and yet you chastise DL - without a union in maintenance - for having a lower level of outsourcing when you include the value of insourcing revenue which DL brings in - than any unionized airline.

There IS a reason why DL employees don't want unions and your department shows the least interest of any regarding unionization and it is precisely because DL has figured out how to have the most efficient operation AND provide the greatest opportunities and pay for its employees WITHOUT a union.

Maybe when you can show us that unions are succeeding at bringing work BACK INTO those companies from MROs and also bringing in work to those airlines from other carriers on an MRO basis, your peers will believe that a union has value.

So far, that not only is not happening but the pendulum in the industry is moving in the opposite direction - toward more outsourcing.

 

[700UW]

The new AA is bringing more airframes in-house and does more in-house maintenance than any other US based airlines.

TULE alone is the largest airline owned maintenance base, then throw in CLT, PIT, and PHX, which gives the new AA more capabilities then any other US based airline.

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, AA does not do the most in-house maintenance among US airlines. based on the most current DOT reports, AA/US on a combined basis outsource within a few percent the same percent of their maintenance budget.

the difference is that DL brings in 20-25% of its inhouse maintenance budget in MRO revenue which easily brings DL's net outsourcing numbers to the lowest in the US.

 

[700UW]

AA does more in-house than DL just on airframe overhauls alone.

DL does zero AOs on their own fleet, those numbers are money spent, not work being done, but as Dawg says, you have no idea on what you talk about.

 

[Kev3188]

So what's it like out there in the weeds?

This discussion is about representation drives in ACS and IFS.

 

[WorldTraveler]

AA does more in-house than DL just on airframe overhauls alone.

DL does zero AOs on their own fleet, those numbers are money spent, not work being done, but as Dawg says, you have no idea on what you talk about.

AA does more inhouse than DL only if you exclude US and even on a standalone basis only if you fail to include the MRO work that DL brings into DL.

It's only government statistics which we know like others you selectively use and reject when they fit your narrative.

In fact, DL does more work in house than AA even on a standalone basis when you include the MRO work that DL brings in and on a combined basis for AA/US even if you exclude that MRO work.

So what's it like out there in the weeds?

This discussion is about representation drives in ACS and IFS.

why yes it is.

Since there is NO chance of DL Tech Ops seeking a union, shall we just not discuss anything related to Tech Ops - or shall we ask Dawg to start his own thread?

and the only thing there is to discuss about the DL FA campaign is that the IAM withdrew its application, there are government documents that show that the IAM invested tens of thousands of money in the campaign, and there is in fact no evidence whatsoever that money came from donations but a whole lot that shows a flow of money from IAM national accounts.

as for ACS, well, is it fair to say that there is nothing any different than there was on the day of the merger with regard to a formal representation campaign?

 

[700UW]

PMUS overhauls over 50% of billable hours in-house, that's more than DL does.

US outsources component work and engine overhauls, that work should be coming back in-house and sent to TULE when it occurs.

MRO work is not in-house maintenance on its own planes those figures are not counted in the data.

Try again.

So did you count TAESL for AA?

You know where DL sends some of its engines.

 

[WorldTraveler]

iow, you want to reject established government and industry measures of outsourcing to create a measure that shows how well the IAM did at US despite the fact that every statistic other than the IAM's shows that US has the highest percentage of maintenance outsourcing of the big 4.

DL overhauls far more engines from other airlines than it sends to TAESL.

When you try to justify outsourcing 54% of US' maintenance budget as acceptable because the IAM has managed to keep 50% of the airframe overhauls inhouse - higher than AA on a standalone basis or DL and slightly higher than UA, you clearly are unable to stand on the track record which is precisely why DL employees in maintenance have no interest in a union.

When unions have as bad of a track record in protecting jobs as exists at UA and US and AA is going right down the same path, the DL formula works for DL and its employees far better than what any union has been able to achieve.

 

[Kev3188]

AO is a maintenance function, not an ACS one.

US/AA is not DL.

Are there DL F/A's working at TAESL?

 

[700UW]

Its his latest red herring.
 
We can add it to his list of feeble attempts of highjacking and distractions.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev is right.

maintenance isn't one of the topics of this thread and I didn't add them to the conversation this time or the last.

and not only do DL FAs not work at TAESL but neither do any other airlines' 🙂

 

[topDawg]

the hypocrisy in your posts is notable

despite the fact that you have repeatedly stated you are not pro-union, you post here about your experience in the representation campaigns you have worked.

family asks for help you help them. I am sure you don't understand that however. I am not pro-union for MY job, doesn't mean i wouldn't join a union no matter what. (for example, if i worked the ramp i would want a union)

despite the fact that you tout the airframe overhauls that other carriers worldwide do inhouse, you can't counter that DL's direct US peers have sent and are sending more and more airframe overhauls out of the company, including WN who has done it for decades and yet you repeatedly hold them out as the gold standard and AA which is sending work out of the company that has been done inhouse. Apparently, having the highest rate of outsourcing among the big 4 doesn't matter or is ignored by you despite the fact that DL actually does insourcing work which no other US carrier does to a large enough degree to affect the economics of their own maintenance operation.

isn't it you who is always talking about Delta's lower MX cost? if so then they aren't really comparable to UA. (AA still does most of its overhauls in-house)
WN is a different animal than DL/AA/UA.

yes, I am fully aware that the facilities and equipment to support engine and component maintenance is complex - but as southwind noted, DL couldn't do its airframe overhauls entirely inhouse if it wanted to - and neither could any other airline... they simply do not have the facilities any more to do it. and the economics do favor DL doing "higher value" engine and component maintenance inhouse not just for DL but on an MRO, whether you want to admit that work is higher value or not.

when did it become illegal to build a hangar in the US?

and given that carriers like WN and B6 have been sending airframe overhauls out for years, you have to ignore all economic principles in order to think that DL can justify can do something its competitors do not and also to a standard which you do not hold them to.

again, the LCCs aren't comparable to the legacies in this case.

and of course the ultimate hypocrisy is your acknowledgement that unions have allowed airlines to outsource more and more maintenance and yet you chastise DL - without a union in maintenance - for having a lower level of outsourcing when you include the value of insourcing revenue which DL brings in - than any unionized airline.

again, for the 100th time, AA and US aren't combined on the MX side of the house. As of now, Delta DOES NOT outsource the least, AA does.
Talk to me when AA/US have a combined contract and more importantly scope.

There IS a reason why DL employees don't want unions and your department shows the least interest of any regarding unionization and it is precisely because DL has figured out how to have the most efficient operation AND provide the greatest opportunities and pay for its employees WITHOUT a union.

errr......k?

Maybe when you can show us that unions are succeeding at bringing work BACK INTO those companies from MROs and also bringing in work to those airlines from other carriers on an MRO basis, your peers will believe that a union has value.

AMFA at WN went from no overhauls to IIRC 3-4 lines of overhaul in-house.
if that isn't bringing work in-house, i don't know what is.

As 700 said, US has been adding more and more work also. Going from unlimited to 50% of overhaul.

 

[topDawg]

PMUS overhauls over 50% of billable hours in-house, that's more than DL does.

US outsources component work and engine overhauls, that work should be coming back in-house and sent to TULE when it occurs.

MRO work is not in-house maintenance on its own planes those figures are not counted in the data.

Try again.

So did you count TAESL for AA?

You know where DL sends some of its engines.

no the only airline who can count MRO revenue against its outsourcing % is Delta.
Matter of fact, AA counts TAESL as outsourcing for AA.

doesn't know what he is talking about.