Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[Kev3188]

 

Kev, if you believe I am anti-worker please indicate a single post you believe to be anti-worker, we can discuss and others can judge. I believe everyone should be treated fairly, receive fair pay for their work, and receive all protections they are legally entitled to.

Josh

 

Don't need to; you're entire body of work on here speaks for itself.

 

[737823]

So you are saying my above post is anti-worker?

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
there is no 180 on my part.

I have always stated that social media is not representative of what takes place at DL and never has been.

First, many people simply don't participate in it relating work issues and secondly because there may be a lot of people who want change but who choose to channel it thru DL channels instead of the internet.

Whether DL reads this forum or not, change isn't going to come if DL leaders don't hear the concerns of DL people. You do mention some of the same concerns that DL leaders know are issues but, as I have noted, there is rarely the balance in your posts regarding what works good at DL.

I'm not sugarcoating anything but neither are other DL employees willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.

there are very large numbers of union-related discussions that involve non-DL employees regardless of the forum.

the only accurate barometer is what takes place with the NMB.

on that count, unions have suffered massive losses in membership with each merger or asset acquisition while DL employees have chosen repeatedly that they don't want to change what they currently have.

I am all about you and DL employees getting the best you can .... you truly are running a best in class airline and business and it has been decades since DL was as far ahead of the industry as it is now.

But the notion that solutions and ideas from other airlines and failing union strategies that haven't worked at other airlines simply will fly with DL employees is simply a myth - and the voting record proves it.

 

[topDawg]

Dawg,
I can read your posts regardless of how you write them. The point is that it makes it impossible to quote a specific part of your posts when you reply inside someone else’s quotes.

 You don't do that anyways. you always answer with a wall-o-text. 
 
But here. Thanks kev for the help. 

I am not nitpicking but simply validating your input on the forum and inviting you to write in such a way that facilitate a conversation, which I presume is what you want.

 yes you are
 

As for NYC, you are right that AA has no choice but to have a hub in PHL because they are too small in NYC to compete against DL and UA.

But that isn't a bad thing
 

But it still doesn’t mean that PHL will work as well as NYC could have because PHL is a much smaller market and US’ int’l route system is still heavily dependent on low value traffic to Star hubs which doesn’t exist anymore.

 Do you relize you just discribed Delta's network also. Its big in NYC but still heavily dependent on CDG/AMS 

The fact that Parker finally implemented as many seasonal TATL cancellations as he did and did it so heavily across AA and US’ NE US hubs shows that new AA simply does not have the mass in non-LHR markets to be able to compete on the same basis as DL and UA do, esp. in continental Europe.

 You got to be kidding me. 
 
Delta does it to the point that they are legally breaking a contract. thats okay though
 
US does it on a much, MUCH, MUCH, smaller scale then its because they are weak. IIRC AA is dumping like three or four routes over two months. 
 
Delta on the other hand basically ends its hub to spoke network outside of a few months and has cut (seasonally or all together) ATL-MXP,PRG,ATH,CPH,ARN, TLV, SVO, ZRH, SNN. JFK-TXL, CPH, ARN, MAN, EDI, SNN, KEF, ATH, IST. DTW-FCO. CVG-LGW, AMS, FRA, FCO. 
and many others. 
 
So chill out glass house. 

When you consider that DL along with VS and UA both have fairly large operations at LHR, AA absolutely has a strategic challenge when it cannot obtain the presence where other carriers are strong but other carriers can do that in AA’s key markets – and that is exactly the same issue on the Pacific.

UA and Delta. together. along with Virgin
 
are but a very small pimple on BA/AA's LHR butt.
 
Now AA's Pacific issues are a few things. One, over reliance on partners for so many years. Two focusing on Japan for way to many years. Three always trying to fly markets that are full of competition. Parker is doing the smart thing by building DFW into the gateway to Asia. Tossing capacity at ORD, LAX and NYC are quite the stupid move by AA.
 
and the results, or lack of there off, in LAX-PVG, ORD-PEK, ORD-PVG are a great example. 
 

Kev,
there is no 180 on my part.

I have always stated that social media is not representative of what takes place at DL and never has been.

First, many people simply don't participate in it relating work issues and secondly because there may be a lot of people who want change but who choose to channel it thru DL channels instead of the internet.

Whether DL reads this forum or not, change isn't going to come if DL leaders don't hear the concerns of DL people. You do mention some of the same concerns that DL leaders know are issues but, as I have noted, there is rarely the balance in your posts regarding what works good at DL.

I'm not sugarcoating anything but neither are other DL employees willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.

there are very large numbers of union-related discussions that involve non-DL employees regardless of the forum.

the only accurate barometer is what takes place with the NMB.

on that count, unions have suffered massive losses in membership with each merger or asset acquisition while DL employees have chosen repeatedly that they don't want to change what they currently have.

I am all about you and DL employees getting the best you can .... you truly are running a best in class airline and business and it has been decades since DL was as far ahead of the industry as it is now.

But the notion that solutions and ideas from other airlines and failing union strategies that haven't worked at other airlines simply will fly with DL employees is simply a myth - and the voting record proves it.

The problem is you call them failed strategies when they aren't. 
 
Delta is covered up a lot by what NW had at the time of the merger. It is a complete joke that an airline that is SMALLER had 3x the below wing ramp stations DL did. 
 
It is a joke that AA can come out of BK and do more in-house work than DL.......when their CEO made it a point to try and make that operation as small as Delta.
 
Doing better isn't failure. 
 
The Unions have been slow but surely pushing toward coming into Delta. Call it what you want to call it, but that shouldn't be happening. It didn't use to happen. It use to be that Delta didn't have to pull any tricks, any multi-Million dollar campaigns, paint buses, send out tons of paperwork etc. etc. to get just enough to keep Delta non-union.
that is the problem here. I would much rather the FAs/Ramp/Above wing/MX etc. etc not go union. Delta use to do the most to keep unions out.....now not so much.

 

[topDawg]

Kev, if you believe I am anti-worker please indicate a single post you believe to be anti-worker, we can discuss and others can judge. I believe everyone should be treated fairly, receive fair pay for their work, and receive all protections they are legally entitled to.

Josh

"I don't care what stations PM-NW brought online, all that matters to me is my home airport is a mainline station for DL which it is and always has been."
 
that sounds pro-worker to me. I don't care about anyone having a job as long as BOS has below wing.  🙄 

 

[southwind]

So you are saying my above post is anti-worker?

Josh

Your only anti-worker if your anti-union.

 

[southwind]

You claim to speak for ALL of DELTA employees. 
 
 

Yet your an advocate for the IAM more than anyone else here and have "Never" been associated with DL.

 

[737823]

"I don't care what stations PM-NW brought online, all that matters to me is my home airport is a mainline station for DL which it is and always has been."
 
that sounds pro-worker to me. I don't care about anyone having a job as long as BOS has below wing.  🙄 

Point is DL can get away paying peope less in say IND or OMA where the cost of living is much lower than BOS so it makes sense using vendors. There is an ongoing debate on this forum and in other labor circles about protecting 20 $10/hr jobs or 10 $20/hr jobs. I take the view that it's about quality not quantity, that the carriers should outsource certain work to provide the greatest benefit to the greatest number of employees in the hubs and large stations. As Bob Owens has said there comes a point where unions give away so much that the jobs are no longer worth saving. I would place the IAM US fleet and M&R agreements in this category. During the bankruptcy the TWU went for better wages and only 17 stations for fleet which in my view is a good move. Sure the TWU could have protected more stations but they wouldn't have the wages they do today. Why should FSCs in DFW and MIA give away the store so AA could keep places like DTW, IAH, MEM, SEA, etc staffed? How is that fair?

The UA agreement did the exact same thing before long they will only have seven stations is everyone at UA anti-worker too?

Josh

 

[topDawg]

Point is DL can get away paying peope less in say IND or OMA where the cost of living is much lower than BOS so it makes sense using vendors. There is an ongoing debate on this forum and in other labor circles about protecting 20 $10/hr jobs or 10 $20/hr jobs. I take the view that it's about quality not quantity, that the carriers should outsource certain work to provide the greatest benefit to the greatest number of employees in the hubs and large stations. As Bob Owens has said there comes a point where unions give away so much that the jobs are no longer worth saving. I would place the IAM US fleet and M&R agreements in this category. During the bankruptcy the TWU went for better wages and only 17 stations for fleet which in my view is a good move. Sure the TWU could have protected more stations but they wouldn't have the wages they do today. Why should FSCs in DFW and MIA give away the store so AA could keep places like DTW, IAH, MEM, SEA, etc staffed? How is that fair?

The UA agreement did the exact same thing before long they will only have seven stations is everyone at UA anti-worker too?

Josh

er. Delta has DGS working flights in New York. So your argument is done. 

 

[737823]

er. Delta has DGS working flights in New York. So your argument is done.

But yet they keeping showing up to work each shift? It must not be so bad.

Josh

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

But yet they keeping showing up to work each shift? It must not be so bad.
Josh

Yeah. Clearly that is a great argument.

If one is dissatisfied in the job, they just walk away. Simple. :rolleyes

 

[737823]

Yeah. Clearly that is a great argument.
If one is dissatisfied in the job, they just walk away. Simple. :rolleyes

There are no chains on their feet.

Josh

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

There are no chains on their feet.
Josh

I would not want to hire anyone who does not want to improve themselves or their workplace.

You are obviously no leader. The "if you don't like it, there is the door" style has doomed many a companies, and or leaders.

 

[WorldTraveler]

dawg,
you clearly know your job and you are passionate about what believe regard to labor but let me say unequivocally and unapologetically that you are ignorant of network and revenue related issues that matter to DL.

I'll use your style to reply.
 

But that isn't a bad thing

There is no requirement at all that any airline serve any city with any level of service.  But AA's lack of focus in NYC while DL has been very aggressive at growing over the last several years while UA has defended its EWR hub is precisely why AA is in a very weak position in NYC now.
 
Many people here have tried to argue that AA will operate NYC as a focus city but there simply is no evidence that any carrier has succeeded at doing that in someone else's hub.
 
You cannot be significantly smaller than other carriers and try to serve more than spokes to your hubs.  There is no valid example of what AA is proposing to do in the US, and probably not in the world. 
 
 Do you relize you just discribed Delta's network also. Its big in NYC but still heavily dependent on CDG/AMS 
 
I am simply speechless at your ignorance of how incredibly profitable DL's JV with AF and KL is.   DO you realize that in the peak summer months, DL has 25% profit margins on the Atlantic?  that's one in four dollars of revenue ending up as profits.

I'm not sure that even Tech Ops insourcing is that profitable.
 
DL's TATL network is anything but low yielding.
 
And DL still has a very significant presence in Europe outside of its CDG and AMS JV hubs. 
 

 
 You got to be kidding me. 
 
Delta does it to the point that they are legally breaking a contract. thats okay though
 
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  operating seasonal service is breaking a contract?  what contract, judge? 
 
there is nothing legally requiring DL to serve markets other than when DL can make money doing so. 
 
DL actually looked at the amount of seasonal and day of week flying that CO did and pushed it to a whole new level.
 
DL's profitability is hugely connected to its ability to fly when it can be profitable and stop when they can't
 
US does it on a much, MUCH, MUCH, smaller scale then its because they are weak. IIRC AA is dumping like three or four routes over two months. 
 
AA and US are implementing more than a half dozen seasonal suspensions this year - on top of what they did before - which wasn't a whole lot.
 
They realize just as UA has done that seasonal alterations to schedules are the only way to reach the levels of profitability that DL has achieved.  Imitation is the highest form of flattery. 
 
Delta on the other hand basically ends its hub to spoke network outside of a few months and has cut (seasonally or all together) ATL-MXP,PRG,ATH,CPH,ARN, TLV, SVO, ZRH, SNN. JFK-TXL, CPH, ARN, MAN, EDI, SNN, KEF, ATH, IST. DTW-FCO. CVG-LGW, AMS, FRA, FCO. 
and many others. 
 
So chill out glass house. 
UA and Delta. together. along with Virgin
 
are but a very small pimple on BA/AA's LHR butt.
 
Now AA's Pacific issues are a few things. One, over reliance on partners for so many years. Two focusing on Japan for way to many years. Three always trying to fly markets that are full of competition. Parker is doing the smart thing by building DFW into the gateway to Asia. Tossing capacity at ORD, LAX and NYC are quite the stupid move by AA.
 
and the results, or lack of there off, in LAX-PVG, ORD-PEK, ORD-PVG are a great example. 
 
The problem is you call them failed strategies when they aren't. 
 
Delta is covered up a lot by what NW had at the time of the merger. It is a complete joke that an airline that is SMALLER had 3x the below wing ramp stations DL did. 
 
It is a joke that AA can come out of BK and do more in-house work than DL.......when their CEO made it a point to try and make that operation as small as Delta.
 
Doing better isn't failure. 
 
The Unions have been slow but surely pushing toward coming into Delta. Call it what you want to call it, but that shouldn't be happening. It didn't use to happen. It use to be that Delta didn't have to pull any tricks, any multi-Million dollar campaigns, paint buses, send out tons of paperwork etc. etc. to get just enough to keep Delta non-union.
that is the problem here. I would much rather the FAs/Ramp/Above wing/MX etc. etc not go union. Delta use to do the most to keep unions out.....now not so much.

 

[737823]

I would not want to hire anyone who does not want to improve themselves or their workplace.
You are obviously no leader. The "if you don't like it, there is the door" style has doomed many a companies, and or leaders.

The people that work for my family business seem to like it and have stayed around for 20+ years.

Josh