Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[WorldTraveler]

sure... but to argue that pay didn't matter is nonsense.

B6 could have easily come up with employee merger protection language and incorporated into its legal framework if that was all that would have fixed the problem.

 

[southwind]

Gee if they arent interested, then why are they signing cards?
 

 
There is always going to be peeps signing cards and I believe, you'll find, almost 100% of the ex NW employees are signing 'em!
Their only roadblock, DL employee's who were never at NW.

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, actually southwind, there aren't as many NW employees signing cards as the union spinmeisters here would like to think.

The merger was never 100% DL employees against or 100% NW employees for. It took very little DL employee and we know it exists to support unions but they didn't win.

There are plenty of NW employees, just like former PA, EA, and WA employees who belonged to unions but don't see any value in them any longer.

 

[topDawg]

First, you are the one who is blowing my request (and that is all it was) for you to post in a format that what you write can be quoted. You are free to do what you want, but don’t you dare accuse me of nitpicking by ASKING you to do something that is the norm on this board. If you choose not to do so, that is your business.

No, I didn't know how to do it. Kev showed me and after that post I have been doing it. You know  I have but you have to take you little digs. Its all part of you trying to make people look away from all the wrong things that you post. 

If you want to react as ridiculously as you have over a request, then it is no surprise that you have the problems figuring out how to live within the system that exists at DL. Your reaction to my REQUEST says way more about you than me.

See, another dig. I have been doing it, you know i have been doing it. But you have to come here and act stupid like i have haven't been doing it. 
 

Take a big step back, get yourself together, eat your humble pie, and rejoin the conversation. Your contributions on the topics you know are welcome.

Who are you? 
You take a step back and learn your place. 

You are undoubtedly a very good mechanic but you have said one patently incorrect statement after another about DL and the industry.

Such as? Please show one statement that is false with facts to back them up. I want a direct quote from me though, because what you say is wrong info is more of an issue with your reading/comprehension skills than anyone being wrong. don't worry, I'll help you out though.....I will point out such things bellow.  
 

- DL has a revenue premium to the industry across both the Atlantic and the Pacific. You made the statement (or asked the question) if what DL does at CDG and AMS is similar to US’ low yielding network across the Atlantic which was possible because of low labor rates. Not only are DL’s labor costs considerably higher than US’ but DL pulls in premium revenue on its TATL network.

No I didn't. I didn't even make the comparison. You said AA is over reliant on London. I said if AA is over reliant on LHR then so is DL with its JV hubs. Some how you see that as me questioning the money at the CDG/AMS hubs. How you got to that I have no frickin clue.  
 

- There is absolutely no requirement or limitation against DL operating seasonal flights on any part of its network including the Atlantic and I can absolutely assure you that DL would never agree to any restrictions by any labor group telling them where or when they can fly and with what aircraft.

Okay. You are showing that you know nothing(not even a little bit) about the contract DALPA has. I would recommend that you google that, read it then post. 
 
Delta can not pull flights and capacity out of a market TATL without a a same pull down from AF/KL. Now it is not just based on flights or capacity, but the parties came to an agreement that measures ASM, Capacity, flights even cargo. (I believe it is called ASKs, not to be confused with available seat kilometers)  
 
so yes, Delta did agree to that, and it is a big reason why they are out of compliance currently. The major pull back in the winter, along with dropping of many routes year round is exactly why Delta is breaking it contract with DALPA. 

There are restrictions in the pilot working agreement regarding production balances via ASM counts with AF/KL as well as with other JVs. Given the revenue sharing, the concept in principle is fine with me.

No. It is based on ASM, capacity, flights and a host of other metrics. This is how I know that you don't know what your talking about. 
 
Not knowing is going, making s**t up and posting it acting like it is factual is not. 
 
and yes, AZ is also a part of the agreement but is so small that they basically don't register. It would take a large capacity swing from AZ for them to really make a difference. AF/KL/AZ are the only airlines (along with DL) in that group. DALPA/DL also have an agreement over Virgin Oz and will have to come to an agreement over Virgin Atlantic. (however, these are not part of the AF/KL/AZ/DL agreement) 

Maintaining ASM balance is far different than saying that DL cannot operate seasonal flying.

No it isn't. first off, again its not just ASMs, second If Delta cuts a flight and AF/KL doesn't also cut back then they are out of compliance. period. 
 
Now the seasonal flying is less of an issue than just the down right cutting of the network, but it is still a part of the reason that DL is so far out of compliance 

 

[WorldTraveler]

I hope you can fix planes better than you can talk about network issues.

you have confused umpteen things that are not at all related. there is nothing that requires DL to serve ANY market. Your statement about seasonal flying was incorrect.

the pilots were SPECFICIALLY concerned that the addition of AZ is what through the JV out of balance; even by their charge, the JV was out of balance by only a couple percent - which is all AZ flies.

And I still assert that the AF strike and DL's additions could well serve to remove the JV balance issue.

And again, it is a PILOT issue. If you are so confident that a union is what is necessary to protect jobs, then they have one and they can deal with it.




thank you for using the quote function.

 

[topDawg]

There are a number of routes that make sense for all 3 of the big US airlines to fly during the peak summer season when demand is high and fares can support profitable flying. The only downside is that the all of those employees and airplanes have to be placed somewhere in the off-peak season when DL’s route system because much more heavily focused on carrying passengers to AF/KL hubs where they are distributed to other points in Europe on that side of the Atlantic.

Cool story. 
 

There is a measurement and a cure period in the pilot contract regarding ASM measurements in the JVs.

Thanks. Unlikely yourself I understand how it works. Delta is currently in the cure period as we speak. 
 

Even if DL was out of balance with the JV, they still have a period to cure the imbalance. In case you missed it, AF has been on strike for the past 2 weeks. They have cancelled between 6 and 10 flights/day; nearly every aircraft AF uses on the Atlantic is larger than DL’s because of the differences in the way DL and AF’s route networks operate. Because AF and KL don’t get credit in the JV for capacity they don’t fly, removing half or more of AF’s capacity from the system for 2 weeks in itself would have done wonders to change the balance of the JV in DL’s favorBUT that wasn’t the only thing that happened in Sept. If you looked at DL’s traffic report for this month, DL added over 8% more ASMs to its TATL system in Sept 2014 which means that change alone could have put the JV back in balance.

1) no even if, Delta is out of balance. Way out of balance. I believe they are somewhere around 40% when they are suppose to be in the 52-54% ball park. (it was lower than that but Delta agreed to an LOA that extended the cabin mod time in exchange for more flying.)  
 
2) 8% of ASMs in one month isn't going to come close to where Delta needs to be. I believe they would have to add something like 6-8 year round daily flights on 330s or larger to get to the balance point. Delta is very, very, very, very far from where they are suppose to be. Now the issue DALPA has they don't have any penalties listed in the contract. So it will end up going to arbitration and I expect Delta to cut DALPA a fairly large check.  
 
3) like the 8% ASM increase, the AF strike is meaningless here. This is a year round look at flying. It isn't just "oh well we are good a for a week because of a strike so start the clock over" kind of agreement. Again, please learn what your talking about. your making yourself look terrible. 
 

The two moving parts of added capacity by DL and dramatically lower capacity by AF could well have corrected the problem far more than ALPA could have imagined. Given that DL’s capacity for the month was set before the strike and remained unchanged during it, DL might well have been planning to cure the imbalance this fall with its own capacity increases; the AF strike only made the correction even more dramatic.

Only in your world. In the real work that isn't the case. 
 
And Delta doesn't have the aircraft availability to do so. Parking the 4 747s is a sign to DALPA that Delta s just going to go to the arbitrator over it.  
 

- There is nothing sacred about the Delta Shuttle in terms of who has to fly it or work it. The Shuttle market has shrunk dramatically since DL bought the Shuttle from Pan Am. The Shuttle has always been a standalone product that was not connected to the rest of DL’s system; DL long believed – as did Pan Am - that the convenience of the Marine Air Terminal and the type of service of the Shuttle offset the lack of connections which the Shuttle could have if it were connected to the rest of DL’s system. Even in DCA, the Shuttle doesn’t connect to other DL flights even though it operates from gates right next to the mainline operation. With the changes to the Shuttle in about a month, DL is not only bringing the Shuttle back to mainline but allowing connections, even if starting with only one leg of the Shuttle.

huh? see more wall-o-text that has nothing to do with what anyone has said. 
 

You and other labor supporters make enormous noise about 40 RJ flights that operate out of the MAT using contract BW personnel but are hopelessly blind to the 150 RJ flights that are worked by DL people in Terminals C and D of LGA or other airports including the 250 or more RJ flights/day at ATL.

Please point out to me when I said ANYTHING bad about DCI doing below wing work in Atlanta or LGA. I want a quote. 
 
Stop putting words in my mouth. 
 

Kev is right that DL does what they do because they can. And they also could outsource RJ handling of DCI flights in major hubs but they don’t. It is the complete inability of Kev and you and the rest of labor supporters to see the balance that causes so many DL employees to not take the labor movement seriously. You refuse to give the company credit for anything they do right and then moan about something that is far smaller than what the company does.

Yes they do. Delta doesn't work DCI flights in MSP, DTW or SLC. I also think DGS does the below wing work at JFK. (T2 only, we will see if they put Delta bw when they shift over to T4 or if DGS will do it.) 
LGA/ATL/LAX and CVG are all Delta, the rest of the hubs are DGS or OO 
 

- As for LHR, you somehow can’t grasp – which is breathtaking given that you work mere steps from the world’s largest airline hub – that LHR is not only AA/BA’s largest local market but it is also their primary TATL connecting hub.

where did I say it wasn't?
 

DL and VS use LHR to serve the local market. DL uses AMS and CDG and other Skyteam hubs to carry connecting passengers. Oneworld has a small connecting presence in other hubs but LHR is their largest hub. For you to be unable to see the strategic advantage that DL and UA have in NOT having to use LHR as a connecting hub and instead use LHR for what its limited capacity works best for – the local market – is really frightening, dawg. Further, DL and VS do carry about 25% of the local US-LHR market compared to slightly over half for AA/BA. To say that DL and VS are pimples on AA/BA’s backside is ignorance of the market to the utmost degree.

 
When did I say any of this? all I said was Delta/virgin compared to BA/AA is but a small pimple. Only you get all that other horse crap from it. 
 

IN case you have missed it, even after the merger, AA is number 3 out of 3 US carriers across both the Atlantic and the Pacific. DL is #1 across the Atlantic and #2 across the Pacific, the opposite of UA. [/quote}

No one expects you to know or understand DL’s network, dawg. But when you make statements that are so incredibly wrong and so easily backed up by facts, you invite the criticism that is heaped on you.

Step back from the board, get the facts, stick to what you know, and participate on the forum as a grown up.

You have positive contributions to make. Dissing others and making patently incorrect statements does nothing to cement your position on this board.

As I have said, your the one who is mostly wrong. people like me, Kev etc. point this out but you just keep right on going. Now your making this personal because I have been basically owning you around here. Educate yourself. Google is your friend. Things like DALPAs contract are publicly available.
 
Oh and a final note, "dissing" are you 12? wow.  

 

[topDawg]

I hope you can fix planes better than you can talk about network issues.

you have confused umpteen things that are not at all related. there is nothing that requires DL to serve ANY market. Your statement about seasonal flying was incorrect.

the pilots were SPECFICIALLY concerned that the addition of AZ is what through the JV out of balance; even by their charge, the JV was out of balance by only a couple percent - which is all AZ flies.

And I still assert that the AF strike and DL's additions could well serve to remove the JV balance issue.

And again, it is a PILOT issue. If you are so confident that a union is what is necessary to protect jobs, then they have one and they can deal with it.




thank you for using the quote function.

Well I tell myself this, I could probably be better, but I have a long long way to fall to get you the level your on. I haven't gotten to the point of taking digs and making things up to seem like a bad ass on an internet forum.
 
and I like how I can't discuss pilot issues, but you being a washout its completely okay if you do it. If we are playing that game then why are you even here? Glass house and all that..................   😉
 

 
 
 
Uh, did you not read what Dawg responded to you when you said that earlier?
 
 

 
 
 
 
 

 

I'm sure saw it. 
understanding it.....nah. 
 

Continue to conflate them if you wish, but pay levels & total compensation are two separate items.

bingo
 

I'm not sure why you're implying that most of your former coworkers are ignorant, but they're two separate items. Period.
 

 

What hypocrisy? Of course they should share some of the revenue with all of us who help generate it! Doesn't change the fact that "pay" and "total compensation" are two separate things.

bingo. 
 

Ahem...



 

Hey he was management. They do what they want.  🙄
 

Why not? The sentiment Robbed notes is absolutely occurring across the system.


Of course it is.

...Thanks to the scope clause in a CBA...

Damn unions.     
 

WT, what will happen to you if the fa's go Union , what is going to be your reaction?

epic. simply epic. It will be so enjoyable. 
 
He will start by posting a bunch of unless info, fallowed by telling everyone that we are stupid and he is the smartest man in the world. 
 

 
There is always going to be peeps signing cards and I believe, you'll find, almost 100% of the ex NW employees are signing 'em!
Their only roadblock, DL employee's who were never at NW.

So the last FA vote before the Northwest folks joined in was 100% no? (hint, it wasn't. It was about 60/40 no.) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

dawg,
if you think DL is flying 40% of the ASMs to AF/KL's 60 then it is no wonder you are bent out of shape.

It couldn't be further from the truth.

You and Kev might have insight into what goes on in your WORK areas but neither of you know network related issues; Kev is smart enough not to try to talk about things that he doesn't know about.

for you to say that DL/VS is a pimple to AA/BA means you have no idea of the market. BTW, AA/BA take DL very seriously. Parker commented about DL/VS' added capacity. If they were already a pimple, the added capacity would mean nothing to them. He tried to convince investors that DL's actions were reckless - not unlike I have characterized AA's addition of routes like JFK-DUB and ORD-DUS that absolutely sucked for all but about 4 months since they started.

You might also remember that he is acknowledged my network/revenue expertise on this board whether he admits it or not.

you can discuss anything you want but you better get it right.... when you make comments such as that DL is only flying 40% of the AF/KL/AZ JV ASMs, you are clearly talking way out of turn.

 

[Kev3188]

 
 
 

You and Kev might have insight into what goes on in your WORK areas but neither of you know network related issues; Kev is smart enough not to try to talk about things that he doesn't know about.

If only you would do the same....

you can discuss anything you want but you better get it right....

Sage advice; when can we expect you to follow it?

 

[WorldTraveler]

except that you want to pretend I don't know what is going on when the evidence screams that DL employees aren't interested in unions.

A one man campaign of discontent surrounded with a few occasional bystanders and the participation of a host of non-DL employees means nothing, Kev.

and the same thing goes about factual statements that dawg made about everything from the London market, seasonal flying, the amount of imbalance that might have existed in the DL/AF/AZ/KL JV and the range of the 310 in real world use vs. the 767-300ER.

You can talk about all you want but when there are clear facts that you and he and anyone else wants to ignore, you shouldn't be surprised when you are forced to defend you emotionally driven and fact devoid posts.

 

[Kev3188]

except that you want to pretend I don't know what is going on when the evidence screams that DL employees aren't interested in unions.

You were saying?
 

you can discuss anything you want but you better get it right....

 

[southwind]

 

So the last FA vote before the Northwest folks joined in was 100% no? (hint, it wasn't. It was about 60/40 no.)
[/quote]

My bad! Guess 40% of the NW peeps finely figured out, paying unions dues did not produce rainbows and unicorns, in a land where everyone holds hands and sings kumbaya.

 

[BABABOOY]

As former NW F/A's are retiring, look now at the Thousands, yes thousands of F/A's who have been hired 
since the last vote.  We are at 21,000 +  
As far as F/A's, a vote IS NOT imminent.  Very doubtful it will happen.  Very doubtful. 
Many who are getting paid by the IAM will tell you the opposite to see how long they can
hold onto their pack check from them.  

 

[700UW]

A real CBA not a company policy:
 
https://www.apfa.org/images/TA/APFA-AA-Tentative-Agreement.pdf

 

[metopower]

Baba from what I have seen you are right on the money.Just not much interest .