IAM Fleet Service topic

[ChockJockey]

I may stumble across something for which I find insightful, as was the case of the SWA 25 Minute Turns video. And the hearty "thanks" I recieve calls me a management stooge along with directions to the SWA board?

No, we get it, you're an incurable Southwestophile and will at every given opportunity trash talk and demean your own work group and coworkers. Whatever floats your boat...

 

[roabilly]

My Dearest Mister Roability and The Most Honorable CJ,

My repeated reference to "Southjest" (a very flattered play on words), it a reminder of our own small world blinders which block us from comparing and constrasting ourselves against arguably the most successful airline presently in the US. When I hear how "Southwest makes this much..." and "... we deserve a raise", in context to our own profitability and productivity, I begin to question as to exactly what about individual fleet members give them that idea outside that's how much they made 20+ years ago? (Thus my discourse of rent sharing and brief history of CAB.)

Many have questioned my assertions and even the underlying facts which support my views, and on occasion, I may stumble across something for which I find insightful, as was the case of the SWA 25 Minute Turns video. And the hearty "thanks" I recieve calls me a management stooge along with directions to the SWA board? Gentlemen, I am not your adversary, but only someone who disagrees with this groupthink mindset which finds itself impervous to even commonly accepted information available to the public.

"Southwest" should be called "SouthSWOT" as they are the real adversary, and viewed within the management analysis paradigm of SWOT -- Strenghts, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats ... we should open ourselves as to being better, more productive, and even paid more than SWA, but this is not a case of "Pick Two" because they are all connected. We certainity are not better, nor more productive, but yet, many think we should be paid as much or even more?

So Conveys Jester.

Dear Quasi Honorable Mr. Jester (follis), Esq.

After careful consideration... and a tremendous volume of research... I have concluded beyond any reasonable doubt that your assertions are once again without merit.

Attempting to compare a self proclaimed “Legacy International Carrier” to a “Middle-Aged Domestic Inmate” is a complete mockery of the Industry!

This is akin to a flippant mosquito pestering your medieval monarch... thus... I must humbly submit... SOUTHPEST!

So initiates the skewing of a motley hat...

BroBilly

P.S. They will have to consolidate... just as we will...

 

[Harry Callahan]

Hey Harry...

My understanding is that there will be NO re-bid for Fleet in CLT.

Apparently, a duplication of a member's name occurred near the bottom of the list. There has been a LOA signed to allow all effected members from the duplication down to re-bid if they wish. This was decided in lieu of making the whole group fill out proxies for another complete re-bid.

Chock Jockey... thanks for directing Jester to the correct forum... “SOUTHJEST”!!

So... entices

BroBilly

Thanks BroBilly.

 

[freedom]

So I’ve got some thoughts on up coming negotiations and the discussions that we’ve been having on this message board …

On the one hand I really do agree with jester in that I feel a lot of what he says is relevant and appeals to common sense … ( just drive down main street in mesa )

On the other hand I’m realizing that we have the strongest union on the property … A lot of times throughout the years I’ve thought of our union subconsciously as a second tier union .. Usually when you think of strong aviation unions with bargaining power you think of pilots or FA’s , in our situation , the pilots and FA’s are completely out of the game , and the mechanics are to me a quite bunch .. Which means that WE are the top dog as far as unions go at this company …

I think the possibility exists for considerable contract gains for our work group …but it would require commitment to union principles on a level that I don’t think we’ve ever taken it too before ..

What is required here is bargaining from a position of absolute strength .. The playing field must be vastly unequal and in our favor …


Many of you have heard of the SEIU …. Their name is the word for union strength these days ..I’ve read about them in the wall street journal , the economist etc …. They are widely known in the business world , the IAM , not so much …

Because of their notoriety , because of their political connections and ability to mobilize people , they have strength …


The potential exists for our union , to become very powerful , but it’s going to take effort , and commitment … the road ahead of us would be long ( but not too long ) , and grueling …


I feel that the ONLY way to accomplish our goals is through pure strength …

To do this we will have to solidify our own base here at 141 , and then move outside of our union and into the political arena ..

Our country cries out for the principles upon which unionism was built … You know ,back in the day when people used to talk about globalism and the threat it posed to our workers , I used to laugh and think the people saying that were poorly educated and crazy ….I’m not laughing anymore … globalism , is trying to kick down our front door and assault us in our own home ..

America wants a UNION that they can believe in , a union that’s going to stand up to globalism and punch it in the teeth ..

I want OUR union to be the one to rise up … it is WE who should be written about in the wall street journal and talked about on political shows on Sunday morning …. The political situation in this country is a powder keg , the American people are frustrated , they are afraid , some of them are hopeless …

We can be the ones to provide hope ….. If we can bring a ray of light to the American population at large , they will love us and we will have the power that the SEIU now commands ….

Then and only then will our bargaining position be strong ..

 

[Jester]

So I’ve got some thoughts on up coming negotiations and the discussions that we’ve been having on this message board …

On the one hand I really do agree with jester in that I feel a lot of what he says is relevant and appeals to common sense … ( just drive down main street in mesa )

On the other hand I’m realizing that we have the strongest union on the property … A lot of times throughout the years I’ve thought of our union subconsciously as a second tier union .. Usually when you think of strong aviation unions with bargaining power you think of pilots or FA’s , in our situation , the pilots and FA’s are completely out of the game , and the mechanics are to me a quite bunch .. Which means that WE are the top dog as far as unions go at this company …

I think the possibility exists for considerable contract gains for our work group …but it would require commitment to union principles on a level that I don’t think we’ve ever taken it too before ..

What is required here is bargaining from a position of absolute strength .. The playing field must be vastly unequal and in our favor …


Many of you have heard of the SEIU …. Their name is the word for union strength these days ..I’ve read about them in the wall street journal , the economist etc …. They are widely known in the business world , the IAM , not so much …

Because of their notoriety , because of their political connections and ability to mobilize people , they have strength …


The potential exists for our union , to become very powerful , but it’s going to take effort , and commitment … the road ahead of us would be long ( but not too long ) , and grueling …


I feel that the ONLY way to accomplish our goals is through pure strength …

To do this we will have to solidify our own base here at 141 , and then move outside of our union and into the political arena ..

Our country cries out for the principles upon which unionism was built … You know ,back in the day when people used to talk about globalism and the threat it posed to our workers , I used to laugh and think the people saying that were poorly educated and crazy ….I’m not laughing anymore … globalism , is trying to kick down our front door and assault us in our own home ..

America wants a UNION that they can believe in , a union that’s going to stand up to globalism and punch it in the teeth ..

I want OUR union to be the one to rise up … it is WE who should be written about in the wall street journal and talked about on political shows on Sunday morning …. The political situation in this country is a powder keg , the American people are frustrated , they are afraid , some of them are hopeless …

We can be the ones to provide hope ….. If we can bring a ray of light to the American population at large , they will love us and we will have the power that the SEIU now commands ….

Then and only then will our bargaining position be strong ..

Freedom,

I think you should understand that the SEIU represents mostly service workers, thus the name "Service Employees International Union" which places them in a unique situation. Most of their work groups are in healthcare, government, janitorial, and security services. Needless to say that as the US economy has evolved into a service based economy, unions who have specialized in those sectors have done better than other unions which focused on manufacturing. I have pondered if our employment would be considered a "service," per se, but as we are not manufacturing anything, I would suggest that to be the case.

The bargaining power of an union is a function of many factors... government attitudes and laws, the relative easy to replace striking workers, the ability to move equipment to overseas, the financial strength of the firm, the degree to which to move the workplace to another location, etc. The SEIU finds itself in a stronger position than most in those aforementioned regards as they represent healthcare workers (relatively difficult group to replace given the existing shortage and licensing requirements), government workers (difficult to move their workplace to another location and the indifference of government managers to keep wages lower), but janitors and security services are more replaceable insofar they are relatively low skilled positions with a large population of unskilled and unemployed people in the present economy.

Unfortunately, the IAM finds itself more representing the later group... and those skilled, licensed positions can find the planes flown to contractor located either in the US or even Central America for heavy checks. Fleet service on the other hand faces hoards of unemployed people able to perform the tasks requiring no licensing or certifications. Probably the biggest restriction into this profession would be physical requirements, ability to pass a drug test and prior criminal history... frankly, these are relatively low standards. The higher the barriers to entry into a profession, the greater the negotiating abilities for an union. The IAM appears to be pushing scope because they understand the reality that even at lower wages during this economy would attact thousands of unemployed workers if the jobs were not protected under a contract (less union workers would lead to lower due collected, as a result). Thus why I continue state that we are unlikely to see a major increase in pay given the trade-off with other priorities... much to the dismay and annoyance of other posters.

I know a couple of years ago that Dept. of Homeland Security was considering an examination of an airport workers credit score as part of their security background credit. Airport employees with low credit scores would be denied a SIDA badge, because the concern was the financially desperate people would be enticed into criminal acts or even terrorism with a monetary reward. I believe the TSA workers have their credit score as part of the background check (as do bank tellers, casino dealers, and various other professions). My point is that so long as there are relatively low barriers to entry into the fleet service profession, the less bargaining leverage will be available, and the more hurdles into the profession (background checks, credit scores, education, closed shop, drug testing, certifications, etc.) the fewer number of potential replacements.

So Proffers Jester.

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

Freedom are you serious?

Everyone is replaceable, especially Fleet, Pilots are the most difficult, then FAs, then Mechs, then Fleet. Alaska Airlines farmed out their entire fleet service, you are not in a position of power at all.

 

[freedom]

Freedom,

I think you should understand that the SEIU represents mostly service workers, thus the name "Service Employees International Union" which places them in a unique situation. Most of their work groups are in healthcare, government, janitorial, and security services. Needless to say that as the US economy has evolved into a service based economy, unions who have specialized in those sectors have done better than other unions which focused on manufacturing. I have pondered if our employment would be considered a "service," per se, but as we are not manufacturing anything, I would suggest that to be the case.

The bargaining power of an union is a function of many factors... government attitudes and laws, the relative easy to replace striking workers, the ability to move equipment to overseas, the financial strength of the firm, the degree to which to move the workplace to another location, etc. The SEIU finds itself in a stronger position than most in those aforementioned regards as they represent healthcare workers (relatively difficult group to replace given the existing shortage and licensing requirements), government workers (difficult to move their workplace to another location and the indifference of government managers to keep wages lower), but janitors and security services are more replaceable insofar they are relatively low skilled positions with a large population of unskilled and unemployed people in the present economy.

Unfortunately, the IAM finds itself more representing the later group... and those skilled, licensed positions can find the planes flown to contractor located either in the US or even Central America for heavy checks. Fleet service on the other hand faces hoards of unemployed people able to perform the tasks requiring no licensing or certifications. Probably the biggest restriction into this profession would be physical requirements, ability to pass a drug test and prior criminal history... frankly, these are relatively low standards. The higher the barriers to entry into a profession, the greater the negotiating abilities for an union. The IAM appears to be pushing scope because they understand the reality that even at lower wages during this economy would attact thousands of unemployed workers if the jobs were not protected under a contract (less union workers would lead to lower due collected, as a result). Thus why I continue state that we are unlikely to see a major increase in pay given the trade-off with other priorities... much to the dismay and annoyance of other posters.

I know a couple of years ago that Dept. of Homeland Security was considering an examination of an airport workers credit score as part of their security background credit. Airport employees with low credit scores would be denied a SIDA badge, because the concern was the financially desperate people would be enticed into criminal acts or even terrorism with a monetary reward. I believe the TSA workers have their credit score as part of the background check (as do bank tellers, casino dealers, and various other professions). My point is that so long as there are relatively low barriers to entry into the fleet service profession, the less bargaining leverage will be available, and the more hurdles into the profession (background checks, credit scores, education, closed shop, drug testing, certifications, etc.) the fewer number of potential replacements.

So Proffers Jester.

Thank you for the background on the SEIU .. but I’m not really interested in why THEY have strength , it is simply enough that they do … They also have something like 2.2 million members ..
I understand how the world works , and that our members are low skilled and easily replaceable … if we were to play by conventional rules , we would be bound by them .. Even union's old dirty tricks would not be effective in the environment we find ourselves in ..

We cannot confront us airways head on and expect to win , in fact we wouldn’t .. Management holds all of the cards , as NY giants fan said ,” you are not in a position of power at all “ ….( Today) …..
Was it not Sun Tzu who said “For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. “
And he also said “He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious. “
Sun Tzu said a lot of things really , but from my readings of him , the main thing I took away is that when they think your going to come over the bridge , cross the river further up stream ..

It may seem as if we hold no cards whatsoever but the fact is we hold the Ace … UNIONISM …we must simply play that card to collect the pot ... We have many current and retired members spread throughout the united states , we cover a wide geographical area , and we have the ability to easily be on one side of the country or the other at will … We have formal channels of communication , such as our physical union structure , and we also possess many back doors of communication such as this message board … Our membership hails from all over the globe , we have men , women , young and old , different religions , different economic classes etc ..

When I look around me at the political atmosphere in our country today , I see weakness , and I see tremendous opportunity to those willing to exploit it … to those who know where to strike … ( my personal opinion of course ) …

The deck stands stacked against us …. We can’t prevail against this company ( by that I mean secure contract additions that would make our membership happy ) … But I know someone who can … The American people …

The question we must ask ourselves is how can we win over the American people ? To make them care that the IAM 141 is protesting something , and get them to JOIN US … Most people nowadays drive by union protests , some flip off unionized workers , others honk their horns continune on … All things considered I would say that most of America doesn’t care about our issues , everyone is self absorbed ….

Lately when I talk to people I find similar themes, similar threads of discontent that cut across all spectrums … we must harness that and use it to our advantage …

Perhaps it’s pointless for a non-college educated baggage handler to talk politics, to talk of union strategy in securing a better contract that doesn’t involve the old ways that unions are used too .. But deep down , I feel that the only way our members will see gains is by unconventional means …

I don’t think I’m a radical by any stretch of imagination , I’d like to think I’m a reasonable , down to earth kind of guy … to be honest I don’t like rocking the boat … I find the world we’re in today to be taking a left to Looney land , and common sense going right …

I wish I could give all of you specifics as to what I’m thinking right now , but the truth is I still have more work to do , more figures to crunch and theories to think through …
I may not be ready today , but I just want to make sure that everyone knows where I stand … I feel that there is opportunity for US Airways fleet service 141 and that despair is not all I sell …

Freedom

 

[freedom]

Behold the power of unions ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_(Polish_trade_union)


all you need are guts .

 

[roabilly]

WTF! First... Freedom is partially right with some of his observations regarding globalization. However, those dynamics will not necessarily affect FS to any degree in negotiations. Airlines for the most part are locked into their geographic hub structures and are not likely to move them because of labor conditions.

SouthJest is partially accurate in his observations that background checks... substance screening... and other forms of higher standards requirements raises the threshold for Fleet recruitments is correct. However, the overall theme of his post attempts to characterize FS as not currently at this level of standards.

I contend that we ARE. (As you read this) at this level of standards, and I see them in real time every single day. These factors raise the bar considerably for recruitment and retention of new employees. The same dynamics will prove to be a tool of leverage to Fleet in Section Six. The only significant obstacle to getting an industry leading agreement will be our own resolve.

I’m certain that the ND negotiating team is both capable, and willing to provide this service... the Membership and the Railway Labor Act will have to do the rest.

It’s up to YOU Fleet Service!

So expounds for the boots that pound the ground!

Brobilly

 

[freedom]

WTF! First... Freedom is partially right with some of his observations regarding globalization. However, those dynamics will not necessarily affect FS to any degree in negotiations. Airlines for the most part are locked into their geographic hub structures and are not likely to move them because of labor conditions.

SouthJest is partially accurate in his observations that background checks... substance screening... and other forms of higher standards requirements raises the threshold for Fleet recruitments is correct. However, the overall theme of his post attempts to characterize FS as not currently at this level of standards.

I contend that we ARE. (As you read this) at this level of standards, and I see them in real time every single day. These factors raise the bar considerably for recruitment and retention of new employees. The same dynamics will prove to be a tool of leverage to Fleet in Section Six. The only significant obstacle to getting an industry leading agreement will be our own resolve.

I’m certain that the ND negotiating team is both capable, and willing to provide this service... the Membership and the Railway Labor Act will have to do the rest.

It’s up to YOU Fleet Service!

So expounds for the boots that pound the ground!

Brobilly

I think roa that your world view concerning our situation is too short sighted ..

It’s not going to be enough to hope that our negotiating team is going to get the job done and cross our fingers and hope that the RLA will somehow protect us ..

Those standards that you talk about as if their lofty , being drug free and not having a felony on record are laughable in the midst’s of ten percent unemployment ..

Like I’ve hinted at before , I think our best bet is through unconventional methods, and that means that fleet should take a controversial foray into politics .. At this point people are probably slapping their heads and groaning because politics and our union objectives seem on the surface to be unrelated .. Normally politics and the short term goals of contract improvements are unrelated , but I feel that currently we could achieve outsized political gains as a union , which would then affect our talks with the company ..

In today’s world it would be relatively simple for our union to make a political impact , we have bodies and we have money , and those appear to be the two key ingredients to getting attention .. Now ideologically we are fractured much like the rest of the country , we have republicans , democrats , independents , greens etc .. But unlike the rest of America , we do have strong common beliefs and they center around employment …

Job creation and matters of employment are arenas in which unions excel … those are some of the top concerns for the American people by and large today .

Right now in America we have a lot of unaddressed issues that have been festering below the surface of the general psyche …..Discontent with the massive bailouts we’ve provided to the fat cats , discontent with illegal immigration , unhappiness with a continuing war in Afghanistan and now to a lesser extent Iraq …There isn’t a day that goes by in the age of the internet where people aren’t reminded of the challenges our nation is faced with ..

The politicians of this country have so far offered little to inspire hope for the future …The republican strategy has thus far been to say no to the suggestions of the democrats … The democrats solution has been to print money and then throw it into the fire in the hopes that they can drown our problems in a sea of green …As I’m sure most of you will agree with me , neither of those “solutions “ are inspiring.

This past Labor day the president spoke about job creation in his labor day speech .. All I heard was more of the same , we will print money , fund a “stimulus” program to create jobs etc … ( he doesn’t call it a stimulus program any longer because the word stimulus is now deeply unpopular according to the latest polling data ) . The thing they don’t tell you about stimulus jobs is that all too often when the money runs out , the jobs end as well …

President's Labor Day speech


If any of you have been to the IAM national website you know that we’re working in a stead fast manner to create jobs through political activism …

IAM , promo video urging memebers to BITE BACK

The IAM webcite for the unemployed is www.unionofunemployed.com

I think that’s quaint , while million of Americans are unemployed , while teenage employment is at it’s lowest levels since record keeping began and we’ve got states with unemployment higher than 12 % ( Nevada has 14 % unemployment ) …. We’re holding pep rallies and sending emails out ……


I desire faster results …We have a duty to our now unemployed members , a duty to our country men , and a duty to the principles upon which we claim to stand …

What if I told you there was a way to create hundreds of thousands of long term jobs in the three states of this country that have unemployment levels higher than 12 % within 90 days ? (Michigan 13.1 % , Nevada 14.3 % , California 12.3 % )

There’s a program run by the social security administration that sends out No match letters to employers whose employee’s social security numbers don’t add up …

I’ve tried to think of a way to explain my idea here as politically correctly as possible but I can’t seem to find the words that won’t atomically shock people by what I’m about to say …So I’m just going to take the shackles that society has tried to impose on my thoughts and speak my mind …


We need to find and remove from employment any illegal aliens currently working within those three states and give those jobs to unemployed American citizens and legal residents ..

I feel that unemployment rates over 12 % warrant swift and decisive action .. Here in Arizona we’re around 9 something … at 9 % it’s still relatively easy to find a low paying job ( from what I hear ) but my gut tells me that when you have an unemployment rate the likes of Nevada at 14 % even low paying jobs are much harder to come by ..

Using the no match program and making those states use E verify we can force out illegal aliens from employment ….

If our union could get this message out , which is currently ignored by the mass media and unknown to most Americans , the public would EXPLODE…. Poll after poll finds that Americans overwhelmingly want to see our nations immigration laws enforced , and that they ALSO want employment …. Actually it’s employment first and then concerns about immigration , but I think you get my point …Combining these two major issues and then striking with them is the equivalent of a political Coup d'état ….Successful legislation wouldn’t even be necessary for us .. Merely advocating it would accomplish our goal of becoming a national presence … we could do this overnight …When we are powerful we will then have increased leverage at the bargaining table …

No match letters do not discriminate based on race or national origin , they simply inform employers that the employee information given to them is inaccurate , legal residents will be able to correct their information , illegal workers will not … The US government has been slow and ineffective in providing jobs to our people … we should now move to be the ones to offer an IRON clad solution to the current jobs problem ..


I know this topic is contentious , but as union members we’re bound to do what we must…

Here is a link to a website that explains what no match letters are etc … It was published back in 2008 … I don’t recall how the courts ruled on the lawsuit trying to stop it from going into effect , I believe the entire issue was dropped , but I do know that the department of homeland security rescinded the directive that would have sent out the letters to employers .. This topic has been dormant and forgotten …

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/05/no-match-immigration-enforcement-time-for-action

While you consider this ,Please take a moment and remember your fellow brothers and sisters who are suffering right now , who don’t have enough money to make ends meet , who may not be able to take care of their children or even keep a roof over their heads …

 

[mike33]

…

Freedom...appreciate ur coments...but...we've traveled down ur road before and its a deadend dude...no time for ur type of foolishnes...our team knows what they must do and i believe they will...enough said and the sky is still where it was 2 yrs ago...............its not fallen

 

[roabilly]

Freedom...appreciate ur coments...but...we've traveled down ur road before and its a deadend dude...no time for ur type of foolishnes...our team knows what they must do and i believe they will...enough said and the sky is still where it was 2 yrs ago...............its not fallen

I hear yahh mike...

I consider his entire incoherent manifesto to be nothing more than foolish rambling rhetoric. I stopped reading at the second paragraph... I genuinely hope that some...or better yet... ALL of the company’s negotiations team thinks as he does.

We would walk all over them... he doesn’t even have a clue how the RLA factors into his own position as an Airline Employee!

Dubahyew Teee Efff Doood!

BroBilly

 

[freedom]

I hear yahh mike...

I consider his entire incoherent manifesto to be nothing more than foolish rambling rhetoric. I stopped reading at the second paragraph... I genuinely hope that some...or better yet... ALL of the company’s negotiations team thinks as he does.

We would walk all over them... he doesn’t even have a clue how the RLA factors into his own position as an Airline Employee!

Dubahyew Teee Efff Doood!

BroBilly

well i suppose the two of you are correct ... i'm just overly ambitious ..one can dream ......

 

[ChockJockey]

I think roa that your world view concerning our situation is too short sighted ..

It’s not going to be enough to hope that our negotiating team is going to get the job done and cross our fingers and hope that the RLA will somehow protect us ..

Like I’ve hinted at before , I think our best bet is through unconventional methods, and that means that fleet should take a controversial foray into politics ..

So instead of focusing on a battle in which we actually have decent odds (contract negotiation) you are arguing that our interests would be better served with some quixotic long-shot suicide attempt at Freedom's Dream of conquering American politics and dominating domestic national policy? The way you make it sound we could do all that and more and be back in time for dessert.

I'd rather set my care, effort and attention to realistic, achievable goals. Once we have a contract then we can focus on world domination.

 

[bagchucker]

Its been a while since the results of the recent officer election, can anyone tell me (and a few others) who the new AGC for Southern California stations is? it isn't posted or updated in the places one would normally look.