July - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

I fixed my comment.

USAPA is trying but AOL was stopped them so far, except for the furloughed West.

That's better, but you think east pilots have stolen west furloughed pilots jobs? How?

 

[Pi brat]

Are the west pilots recalled east senior to the new hires or were they added to the bottom of the east list including post merger newhires?

I'm guessing from your post they are junior to all. Wasn't there an issue or grievance raised over this way back and USAPA lost it? I can't recall the details. It shouldn't be that way, was it USAPA's decision or the company's?

 

[Phoenix]

I am your co-worker you scab supporting POS.

It was bound to happen sooner or later. Your obsesive use of "scab" became so mundane you now have to resort to more inflammatory insults.

 

[traderjake]

That's better, but you think east pilots have stolen west furloughed pilots jobs? How?

Those West pilots are furloughed because we don't have a joint contract.

The #1 reason we don't have a joint contract is because USAPA doesn't want one if it includes the Nicolau Award.

 

[Pi brat]

Those West pilots are furloughed because we don't have a joint contract.

The #1 reason we don't have a joint contract is because USAPA doesn't want one if it includes the Nicolau Award.

I'd say the majority of pilots don't want a contract that they see as attainable if it includes the nic. That may have been they same if we stayed in ALPA right? Our flight attendants don't have a joint contract either and they have no seniority fight. Separate ops. Don't fall into nic4us' trap

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'd say the majority of pilots don't want a contract that they see as attainable if it includes the nic.

So in your opinion the majority of US pilots don't want what they see as an attainable contract if it includes the Nic - mostly east pilots I presume. Yet it's not their fault that there isn't a joint contract??? And those pilots aren't at fault for not having a joint contract even though they'd vote it down if given the chance - God forbid that an east pilot would be at fault for anything....

Jim

 

[Res Judicata]

You mustn't overlook the entertainment value alone...just from watching such as your dyspeptic self squirm, shout and froth at the mouth 😉

Seriously though; I also get the pleasure of being able to fly with many really great guys/gals that, by way of the "experiment", such as yourself have been prevented from being made magically, instantly, absurdly (and without ANY personal merit required, or at all evident on your part) "senior" over...Is that good enough for you? No? Well...too bad, as it is for me. 😉

Wow. Still pretending not to know the difference between seniority and longevity I see. Too bad, (for you) everybody else knows the difference.

 

[cleardirect]

Something called a fence, about 85% or so of the east pilots will be gone in about 6 or 7 years., that leaves you kids and like I said they want nothing to do with you.

How about you define what you consider a kid is. Someone over 40? Someone over 50? Only when you get over 60.

Oh yes the same tired argument. Just wait 4-5-6 some number of years and you can have what is left. But always the east pilots getting yours first.

Have you told your APA "friends" this theory that they should put the east first and wait 5-6 years? Is that what they did with TWA?

Are you also going to demand that APA rearrange their list so the older TWA pilots will get out of the way in a couple years? Aren't those empire guys older? How about you demand that the east list be rearranged by DOB so your theory really has some logic.

What about the older west guys? Just screw them right.

I am going to tell you again. The APA is going to use the Nicolau and they are not going to care if it is east or west they want us all at the bottom. Age or attrition is not going to matter.

Take a look at the APA list and talk to me about attrition. They have their own and what you think is valuable is a drop in the bucket compared to APA.

 

[A320 Driver]

Those West pilots are furloughed because we don't have a joint contract.

The #1 reason we don't have a joint contract is because USAPA doesn't want one if it includes the Nicolau Award.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!


So you think the company has been bringing proposal after proposal to the bargaining sessions only to be rebuffed by the negotiating committee??? You don't read well, do you? The Kirby is the only comprehensive proposal delivered by the company in what, 6 years? And it won't pass a vote.

If the company coughed up the dough for a decent contract, it would pass, NIC or not. But they haven't and they won't because they don't have to. SK told the financial people in a New York meeting a couple of years ago that they had us right where they wanted us.

Consider this... how many federal judges are going to give the company a blanket pass from liability on almost anything? How much did it cost the company to file for Declaratory Judgement? How much did they save in pilot labor costs over the last two years? A MINIMUM of $160 million bucks. Do the math.

Pull your head out of the sand and take a look around. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Driver...

 

[traderjake]

Pull your head out of the sand and take a look around. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Just how stupid are you? The company doesn't want to pay us more? Really?

There is plenty of blame to go around but it's the union's job to get a contract from the company (even when the company doesn't want to give us one) and it ain't going to happen until they put their efforts in that direction instead of trying to rewrite the seniority list.

The majority of the pilots here don't want a joint contract if it contains the Nicolau Award, that's the #1 reason why we don't have one.

 

[EastUS1]

Wow. Still pretending not to know the difference between seniority and longevity I see. Too bad, (for you) everybody else knows the difference.

"Too bad, (for you).." Not at all. It seems more the case here that it's "Too bad, (for you)". I sleep quite well at night. I feel my beliefs on seniority to be both valid and reasonable, and fully in accordance with what I perceive to be the essential laws of nature. I've precious little concern for what notions you, Mr. Nic, or "everybody else"...the supposed and often west referenced "rest of the world"/whatever hold to the contrary. 😉

 

[EastUS1]

The majority of the pilots here don't want a joint contract if it contains the Nicolau Award, that's the #1 reason why we don't have one.

Well...if after all these years, a majority find that preferable; I'll reasonably submit that the actual, number one reason....is the Nic insanity it's self.

 

[EastUS1]

God forbid that an east pilot would be at fault for anything....

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away; weren't you an "east pilot"?...Or were you always domiciled in and flying only orbital patterns around Mars, Mercury, or perhaps Uranus? 😉

 

[Pi brat]

So in your opinion the majority of US pilots don't want what they see as an attainable contract if it includes the Nic - mostly east pilots I presume. Yet it's not their fault that there isn't a joint contract??? And those pilots aren't at fault for not having a joint contract even though they'd vote it down if given the chance - God forbid that an east pilot would be at fault for anything....

Jim

This one post highlights so well why I dislike you so much. You are smart enough to know what you are posting is B.S. Some on here have that excuse, but you don't.

Words like "fault" and "steal" have a negative connotation. Trader changed his statement to one I can agree with. The main reason we don't have a contract is because the majority of pilots don't want one that includes the Nic. So what? That is allowed under the transition agreement because of the company's actions. When they didn't get a joint contract before the Nic came out, that allowed veto power. Am I wrong if I look at what is available from the company and decide that what they can/will offer is not worth the trade off? Should I push USAPA to get a contract that would implement the Nic no matter what the cost? Should I work for $10 an hour so that the west furloughed pilots can get back to PHX? I don't think so. When and if the company provides a complete package that the majority thinks is worth voting yes for we will have a joint contract, not before. Nic inclusive or not. I firmly believe that if we had something even near a Nic inclusive DL contract in front of us it would be accepted. We don't.

It's the same way for the company. They know that this fight is hurting morale and performance, but it is a simple economic decision to keep things the way they are. And we have no power to make them give more because we hate each other and fight each other at every turn.

I think one of the biggest obstacles to getting a contract has been the Addington suit. But that doesn't mean I think it is the west pilots "fault". It was their reaction to the east's METHOD of avoiding the Nic. I've always said I understand why the west pilots don't like that method, but I truly believe that if we had not used that method, the odds are good we still wouldn't have a joint contract because of the inferior contract the company is willing to sign. We will never know, but there is more evidence out there pointing in that direction than the ridiculous idea that we would be on our 2nd or 3rd industry average contract, like east whatever threw out last night.

 

[Pi brat]

Just how stupid are you? The company doesn't want to pay us more? Really?

There is plenty of blame to go around but it's the union's job to get a contract from the company (even when the company doesn't want to give us one) and it ain't going to happen until they put their efforts in that direction instead of trying to rewrite the seniority list.

The majority of the pilots here don't want a joint contract if it contains the Nicolau Award, that's the #1 reason why we don't have one.

That last line I can agree with. But let's look at something else. Let's say Nicolau came back with a SLI that heavily favored the east. Maybe not DOH, but slotting with the bottom west captains coming in around a '89 east hire. Then the west used the TA's allowed separate ratification and turned down a joint contract, preventing the SLI from being used. Would that be wrong? I see the same thing here. The Nicolau award raised the cost of an acceptable joint contract above what the company will pay. As I told Jim, I know the west pilots disagree with the method. You and I did too, but that's what happened and even if it didn't they TA allowed that delay. ALPA was the first to delay by leaving JNC talks so there if plenty of evidence to show that east pilots were going to fight this one way or another.