June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[lynyrdskynyrd]

....ALPA gave the arbitrator in the East/West SLI a flawed East seniority list....

Just a numbers thing. Otherwise we'd be in a vote no until you cry uncle mode.

 

[algflyr]

Wrong again. The company keeps the official list not the union. The union certifies it but the company gives them the starting point for protests..

The MDA grievance loss for usapa proves that it was not a flawed list. It proves that the MDA guys were indeed furloughed. Nothing wrong with the list.

Ok, two points of order then...

First, as you say, the company keeps the OFFICIAL seniority list. I agree. Is the Nic the OFFICIAL list on the property right now? That's a yes or no question...


And second, ALPA bylaws clearly state that a furloughed pilot CANNOT hold office within the union. There was a pilot on the PHL LEC that was flying the 170's for US Air. How could he hold an official office within ALPA if he was furloughed?? That is expressly forbidden... Yet he was shown as furloughed on the list used for the SLI...

 

[EastUS1]

You don't see the difference between protecting our right in a court of law and thugs threatening bodily harm?

That's hilarious. Even by any known and acceptable drama queen standards: Where do you see/get/even imagine any "thugs threatening bodily harm?" 😉

 

[BoeingBoy]

I see that the same east suspects are still not reading what is said but what they want to be said. Lots of quotes from the 9th that prove nothing - the only thing in that ruling that counts for anything is "Not ripe". But if BS wants to read the 9th's opinion, how about looking at where it said that USAPA's DOH-based list is less favorable for the west than the Nic - that's a DFR statement right there. Or where they said that USAPA may yet propose a solution that is not the Nic, but doesn't do the harm the west fears - USAPA has yet to offer such a non-Nic solution. Or read the multiple instances where the 9th told USAPA that it had to represent both sides fairly - when is USAPA going to start doing that? Or the part where the 9th told USAPA that not representing both sides fairly would result in that unquestionably ripe DFR - is USAPA going to heed that warning or continue insisting on it's DOH-based solution (which isn't as favorable for the west as the Nic) and face that unquestionably ripe DFR.

It seems there are some still confused about the difference between "implimented" and "officially accepted". That thinking leads to the conclusion that any east pilot not already in the left seat of a widebody will never be in the left seat of a widebody - after all, that widebody left seat bid hasn't been implemented so it doesn't exist, right??? The truth is that there is only one accepted integrated seniority list for US - the Nic. Even the company says so in the DJ case. That it hasn't been implemented yet means nothing.

That old bug-a-boo "fradulent" east list submitted by ALPA - the MDA case was supposed to prove that and bury the Nic. The result - the case was summarily dismissed and in doing so the Judge said that ALPA presented an accurate list.

I also notice that nowhere is Kirby quoted as saying anything about a 3-way seniority integration only. And for freighterguy, there are three steps in M-B before arbitration and anywhere in that process a DFR suit can stop everything in it's tracks - USAPA and APA present their certified list, negotiation, mediation, and then finally arbitration. Anywhere before arbitration a DFR can be filed.

Jim

 

[algflyr]

... Or where they said that USAPA may yet propose a solution that is not the Nic, but doesn't do the harm the west fears ...

So Jim, you agree that the court says USAPA could use a non-nic list as long as it doesn't harm the West?

It seems there are some still confused about the difference between "implimented" and "officially accepted".

The list is officially accepted as the list if and when the conditions spelled out in the TA are realized. If they are never realized, it can never be the official list.

Suppose, just as an example, that US Airways got the APA to agree in their recent agreement that all APA pilots would be stapled to the bottom of our list. I know it would never happen, but let's just say it did. Now we have a list that will only be used once the merger is approved while AMR is in BK. That's the condition that will implement the list. Now, for whatever reason the merger isn't approved and AMR emerges from BK as a standalone. Now a year later, AMR approaches US and wants to merge under their terms. Would we expect that list agreed to previously be used? Even though the conditions for its implementation were never met?

 

[Move2CLT]

I believe it is what Kirby then said that indicates what the company's position is;


As for the seniority issue, Kirby said what Dave Bates, president of the Allied Pilots Association, already has said: The 2007 McCaskill-Bond statute creates a path to a resolution because it mandates binding arbitration.
"Our union and APA will have a joint contract and we will have that on the day we close the merger," Kirby said. "Then more than likely, seniority will go through the process, go through arbitration."

In other words, Kirby and Parker don't believe that the nic is binding!

Really, let's see what their lawyers say:

… Hawaiian Airlines dealt only with a tentative agreement that was never actually implemented, and thus is not applicable to this case. The Transition Agreement here is not merely a tentative agreement. It is a fully-executed CBA, signed by the airlines, the union, and the Master Executive Councils which separately represented the East Pilots and the West Pilots……The fact that the Nicolau Award has not yet been implemented does not change the fact that the Transition Agreement contains a commitment to the Nicolau Award, and such contractual commitment is therefore part of the status quo.

Thus, the Second Circuit held that the status quo included the higher wages provided for by the CBA, even though those wages were not in effect. Similarly here, the terms of the Transition Agreement, including its commitment to the Nicolau Award, are part of the status quo between the parties, even if those terms had not yet been implemented

 

[algflyr]

That old bug-a-boo "fradulent" east list submitted by ALPA - the MDA case was supposed to prove that and bury the Nic. The result - the case was summarily dismissed and in doing so the Judge said that ALPA presented an accurate list.

What is your reply to the fact that ALPA bylaws prohibit ANY FURLOUGHED pilot from holding office and yet an active ALPA member and Officer was listed as furloughed?

 

[Move2CLT]

So Jim, you agree that the court says USAPA could use a non-nic list as long as it doesn't harm the West?




The list is officially accepted as the list if and when the conditions spelled out in the TA are realized. If they are never realized, it can never be the official list.

Suppose, just as an example, that US Airways got the APA to agree in their recent agreement that all APA pilots would be stapled to the bottom of our list. I know it would never happen, but let's just say it did. Now we have a list that will only be used once the merger is approved while AMR is in BK. That's the condition that will implement the list. Now, for whatever reason the merger isn't approved and AMR emerges from BK as a standalone. Now a year later, AMR approaches US and wants to merge under their terms. Would we expect that list agreed to previously be used? Even though the conditions for its implementation were never met?

From thet company:

The fact that the Nicolau Award has not yet been implemented does not change the fact that the Transition Agreement contains a commitment to the Nicolau Award, and such contractual commitment is therefore part of the status quo.

 

[algflyr]

Similarly here, the terms of the Transition Agreement, including its commitment to the Nicolau Award, are part of the status quo between the parties, even if those terms had not yet been implemented

Had not YET been implemented... What if they are NEVER implemented??

 

[Move2CLT]

Had not YET been implemented... What if they are NEVER implemented??

Man, when you guys hold on to fantasies you do it with a death grip.

These were the same types of arguments you were using for that LOA93 win that was a sure thing. And remember that MDA decisions that was going to destroy the Nicolau but only served to reaffirm it?

And speaking of MDA, I wonder how that fight is going. LMAO.

You guys are destined for failure.

It's in your nature.

 

[Move2CLT]

What is your reply to the fact that ALPA bylaws prohibit ANY FURLOUGHED pilot from holding office and yet an active ALPA member and Officer was listed as furloughed?

Uh oh, I think you may have found a technicality.

Great work Sherlock.

 

[nic4us]

What is your reply to the fact that ALPA bylaws prohibit ANY FURLOUGHED pilot from holding office and yet an active ALPA member and Officer was listed as furloughed?

Was MDA ALPA? If so an MDA pilot would be considered furloughed from usair but employed as an ALPA carrier member, and therefore would not be barred by the ALPA bylaws from holding office.

 

[Move2CLT]

Silver

I don't think it's the company that provides the seniority list for an integration. It will be USAPA providing the list to be used. That is one reason we are in this mess to begin with, ALPA gave the arbitrator in the East/West SLI a flawed East seniority list. It was ALPA that provided the East list, not the company... Just saying... 🙂

The last MDA decision says the list was fine.

Get over it.

 

[nic4us]

I think if a DOH list, or any list that in NOT the Nic, is used for SLI with American, and the new CBA gives the West pilots huge raises and some QOL improvements as well as fencing in PHX so all PHX attrition is captured by West pilots... How will they say they were harmed??

First off, completely forget about a DOH list in an AMR merger, just will not happen.

Second, being shut out of the benefit of a merger so that the rest of the pilot group can reap extra rewards is how the West would claim harm. And rightfully so. How about we let the east pilots populate the bottom of an integrated seniority list, but give them fences in PIT, BOS and LGA, so they can capture all that PIT and BOS attrition. How could they possibly claim harm?

 

[BoeingBoy]

So Jim, you agree that the court says USAPA could use a non-nic list as long as it doesn't harm the West?

My answer is the same as it has been for 5 years - if USAPA can come up with a list that doesn't harm the west it doesn't have to be the Nic. But neither USAPA or the east pilots get to decide whether it harms the west or not. That would be up to a judge and jury hearing a DFR case. A jury and the 9th have already said that USAPA's proposal harms the west. Want to take a third and 4th stab at it with the same seniority solution???

The list is officially accepted as the list if and when the conditions spelled out in the TA are realized. If they are never realized, it can never be the official list.

Still confused I see. Parker officially accepted the list per the TA in December 2007 - before USAPA became the CBA. Hence USAPA inherited the Nic list as well as the TA that said the single list derived using the ALPA merger policy would be accepted by the company as long as it met the list of company conditions in the TA. The Nic met those conditions and was officially accepted. Your "if and when" was for implementing the accepted list but they had nothing to do with the company accepting the list.

Question #1 - what if the seniority and contract were settled before operations on a single certificate was granted by the FAA. The company couldn't implement either the contract or seniority list per the TA. Would that mean that the single list and contract didn't exist???

Question #2 - do you also believe that USAPA should not have filed the LOA93 pay grevience, since the pay increase USAPA claimed was due to east pilots wasn't implemented and thus never existed - your logic, not mine??? And before you claim that thats different - one is a contract dispute and the other is a union policy - remember that the TA is part of the east and west contracts and that makes the Nic disagreement a contract dispute.

What is your reply to the fact that ALPA bylaws prohibit ANY FURLOUGHED pilot from holding office and yet an active ALPA member and Officer was listed as furloughed?

"ALPA", you know - the one everyone on the east blames for all their ills, recognized the furloughed pilots as active mainline pilots from the day they started at MDA. It was your peers on the MEC and company that refused to do so. It was your peers on the MC that presented the list that the judge in the MDA case said was accurate.

Had not YET been implemented... What if they are NEVER implemented??

The Nic would still be the only officially accepted combined east/west list unless a Judge and Appeals Court somewhere rules otherwise. Care to explain how USAPA is going to get around that and submit it's combined list or insist that there are two officially accepted combined US lists??? Without being hauled into court again??? Without being slapped with an injunction stopping the integration process dead in it's tracks until the case is eventually settled???

More questions for you - if there's a merger and the seniority integration ends up in arbitration, do you really think the the arbitrator will just disregard a previous arbitrators final and binding award just because USAPA and the east don't like the result??? With US on the hook for a hybrid DFR this time will Parker go along with that and not only be a co-defendant with USAPA but watch the merger get stopped for years??? With APA set to replace USAPA and inherit it's and ALPA's agreements with US will it go along and go through the DFR battle for 2-3 years just to placate the east pilots???

Kirby was right - a merger with AA, if it happens - is a second chance to wrap the east/west seniority battle up for forever because the process is governed by federal law this time. No chance for the east to try to wiggle out of the result by voting in another union. Note that he didn't say it was a chance to redo the Nic, bury the Nic, have a 3-way integration, or anything like that. Just another chance to get it settled forever.

Jim