June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Along with 36 vacancies due to early retirement, medical, etc......

Movement.

breeze

Big jump breeze. Congratulations.

In a few months those new hires will all be at the bottom of a new list and you'll find yourself in your relative seniority as well.

 

[BoeingBoy]

New East bid out 40 new hires for Sep.

Vacancies in CLT for new hires 2012

Along with 36 vacancies due to early retirement, medical, etc......

Movement.

breeze

<Sigh...>

Ya'd think pilots with 20+ years with an airline would have learned how to read a simple permanent bid announcement by now.....

As in every bid that includes new hires, the remaining openings after every active line pilot has gotten whatever they want/can hold will go to new hires. Until then there's no way to know where those new hires will end up. It should be obvious that the E190 FO position, being the lowest paid, will be all that's available for many of them.

Attrition less returns create 21 more openings than there are active pilots to fill. As the bid announcement says, extra pilots will be hired in anticipation of 2013 staffing needs.

There is a net gain of 13 captain positions (-69 blockholders + 82 reserves) and a net gain of 8 FO positions (-85 blockholders + 92 reserves). As should be evident when losing blockholders and gaining reserves, there will be at least as much backward movement (blockholders becoming reserves, captains becoming FO's) as upward movement.

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

<Sigh...>

Ya'd think pilots with 20+ years with an airline would have learned how to read a simple permanent bid announcement by now.....

As in every bid that includes new hires, the remaining openings after every active line pilot has gotten whatever they want/can hold will go to new hires. Until then there's no way to know where those new hires will end up. It should be obvious that the E190 FO position, being the lowest paid, will be all that's available for many of them.

Attrition less returns create 21 more openings than there are active pilots to fill. As the bid announcement says, extra pilots will be hired in anticipation of 2013 staffing needs.

There is a net gain of 13 captain positions (-69 blockholders + 82 reserves) and a net gain of 8 FO positions (-85 blockholders + 92 reserves). As should be evident when losing blockholders and gaining reserves, there will be at least as much backward movement (blockholders becoming reserves, captains becoming FO's) as upward movement.

Jim

Poor breeze. Looks like I have to uncongratulate you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It seems that every time a bid comes out I have to correct someone's comments about what the bid contains. I don't know if it's ignorance or attempts to put lipstick on a pig as a way of taking a swipe at the west, but it's every bid...

Jim

PS - I forgot to add that the 40 new hires in the new bid is an approximation and is based on what resource planning knew when they released the bid announcement. Tomorrow they may be notified that 2 more pilots will be returning from medical, going out on medical, rescinding their early retirement, giving their notice of early retirement, going full time USAPA, going to/from the training department, whatever. That would change the number of new hires.

Once the bid award is announced, the actual number of line vacancies remaining unfilled will determine the number of new hires.

 

[mrbreeze]

It seems that every time a bid comes out I have to correct someone's comments about what the bid contains. I don't know if it's ignorance or attempts to put lipstick on a pig as a way of taking a swipe at the west, but it's every bid...

Jim

PS - I forgot to add that the 40 new hires in the new bid is an approximation and is based on what resource planning knew when they released the bid announcement. Tomorrow they may be notified that 2 more pilots will be returning from medical, going out on medical, rescinding their early retirement, giving their notice of early retirement, going full time USAPA, going to/from the training department, whatever. That would change the number of new hires.

Once the bid award is announced, the actual number of line vacancies remaining unfilled will determine the number of new hires.

OK, Jim,

It's still movement and the 40 that are filling junior seats will not go senior to much of anyone. No, it's not the same as expansion, but it is still a better bidding position. With 5 early retirements, 1 termination, and 24 on medical (being old farts), there is a good chance that it is all upward movement.....that was my only point. Sure the 40 new hires blend into it and I did not intend for my post to sound like there was movement of 76 positions.

breeze

 

[BoeingBoy]

OK, Jim,

It's still movement

Sure...someone going from captain to FO is still moving...

and the 40 that are filling junior seats will not go senior to much of anyone.

Duh...obviously a new hire isn't going to be senior to someone already on the property. Is that supposed to be some sort of deep secret you're heroicly exposing?

there is a good chance that it is all upward movement.....that was my only point.

And you completely missed my point - losing blockholder jobs while gaining reserve jobs just doesn't equal "all upward movement". Some blockholders will at best move to reserve - is that upward movement? How many blockholders will move to blockholder on smaller equipment to keep a block - is that upward movement? How may junior reserve captains, having more senior pilots come to reserve above them, will elect to go to FO on bigger equipment - is that upward movement. And I didn't even look at base staffing changes, which could also cause downward movement.

You sound like the poster claiming to have all the bid closing expertise after USAPA became the CBA - nothing he said about the bid process came to pass but he refused to take the word of someone that did bid closings for 17 years, claiming he had all the knowledge and answers.

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

What you don't have is DOH and the Nic as a distant memory. Why you think this may change is beyond logic.

Doing nothing = DOH. The issue is - can a union purposely do nothing in order to benefit one side at the expense of the other and can they force individuals to pay for that at the risk of losing their jobs?

Every pilot who has not pushed for the replacement of USAPA has been complicit in this. The pilots hold the power to put a union in place which would complete the integration under the NIC, but they were too weak to even elect a leader who would pledge to work towards that end under the current union.

Now, because they are too incapable of making decisive choices and managing their own union, a new union is being chosen for them by Doug Parker.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Jim,
Go to Alaska and have a good time.

 

[A320 Driver]

Keep rubbing that rabbit's foot that the APA won't do away with "No Bump, No Flush".

I don't think there is any chance of that. That works both ways and would hurt West as well.

Driver...

 

[BoeingBoy]

I know that you guys dislike inconvient facts, but life is full of them...

Jim

 

[A320 Driver]

Every pilot who has not pushed for the replacement of USAPA has been complicit in this.

Now, because they are too incapable of making decisive choices and managing their own union, a new union is being chosen for them by Doug Parker.

One pilot, one vote. What exactly is it that you are advocating? We vote and we lose...that is democracy. What you want is similar to a civil rights movement complete with handouts. Sorry, but that is the way you make it sound.


A new union, namely APA, is the best option, if you want to call it that. There are 9000 APA pilots. They will get what they want and the rest of us will live with it. HEY! That sounds like what we have NOW!

Carry on...

Driver...

 

[A320 Driver]

Oh, almost forgot. If we were to integrate by ratios with AA, everyone who was not furloughed would be better off with the NIC mathmatically.

Just saying.

Driver

 

[Pi brat]

Every pilot who has not pushed for the replacement of USAPA has been complicit in this.

So, that would be you? I haven't seen a card drive, just the same incassant whinning.


And you know your diatribe about the C18 the other day? What did you do about it? Were you one of the many west guys that were more than willing to make martyrs of the C18 for your own political gain?

The best thing about a merger with AA will be that USAPA will be gone and there will be nothing for you to whine about.

 

[algflyr]

Until then there's no way to know where those new hires will end up. It should be obvious that the E190 FO position, being the lowest paid, will be all that's available for many of them.

Actually, the E190 is the highest paying position for a new-hire... Just saying...

 

[BoeingBoy]

Actually, the E190 is the highest paying position for a new-hire... Just saying...

True - for the new hire....but you've got to think it through further than that...

For those already on the property that have finished their probation it's not the highest paying position. So as those people move to higher paying jobs, where do you think the vacancies that will be filled by new hires will be?

Obviously not all of the new hires envisioned from this bid will end up on the E190 right seat - there are those already there that can't move anywhere yet (voluntarily). But that's where more will end up than anywhere else because that's where the vacancies will be after everyone already on the property has a shot at vacancies.

In short, a lot of the new hires will end up in the right seat of the 190 not because it's the lowest paying position for them but because it's the lowest paying position for those already on the property.

Jim