June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

There are any number of apt names I could call you that would certainly fit, but I'm not.

Any beef you have with what I do for a living is just a distraction you are making to ignore the central point.

Now, on to the binding arbitration agreement, why is it OK for your side to not live up to what you agreed to? Honorable people live up to agreements, especially ones that are made in accordance with the law.

1) Afford yourself your "best shot". Such should serve to amuse.
2) BS. In my estimation; you've yet to forward any supposed "central point" that amounts to anything more than: "but, but...the arbitrator is the Lord's Hand on earth!...You all supposedly "agreed" that he was!...How DARE any not bow down to him!!??" 😉
3) Spare me any "Honorable people" ramblings. At least momentarily, and if purely for the sake of discussion; try exploring this from an exterior viewpoint. WHAT, in your estimation, allows you even the slightest fantasy that YOU form the proper paradigm by which to determine what's "Honorable"? This should prove vastly more amusing than even the "number of appropriate names" you could call me 😉

 

[Move2CLT]

Noooooot ripe...

There is a foundational premise to that conclusion. Three cheers to anyone who can admit it.

Wiiiiiiiith merit.....

There is a foundational premise to that conclusion as well. Both Parker and the APA understand this and won't risk the injunction and litigation that will come with a non-Nic list.

Three cheers to an eastie who figures it out.

 

[Move2CLT]

...spare us all your sanctimonious BS.

Wow. To think this came from, out of all people, eastUS.

 

[luvn737s]

1) Afford yourself your "best shot". Such should serve to amuse.

You know what's fun about EastUS1's postings? He uses so many words (often wrong and incorrectly applied) to say so little. He has such a shallow understanding of the underlying issues that he tries to overcompensate by taking on an 18th century style to masks the ignorance that is nonetheless glaring. Suppose he wrote with a clarity and brevity that reflected his understanding of what he's talking about.

Wait, he does!

Oh, to meet this windbag in person and see the ostrich plume he sticks in his uniform hat. I imagine a short, fat, introvert in a Captain Hook outfit.

I shall stand watch my good sir and good day!!

 

[mrbreeze]

I don't tout my education, I have college degree, big whoop. But 25 years of experience, that takes some doing.

HP,

Ok, you've got 25 yrs of hard earned experience ( I am sure you have earned it). Let's say that your pay, promotions, schedules, etc are based on your 25 yrs on the job. Also, you are represented by a union who has let the company gut your contract and given away your retirement, which was projected to be about $90k/yr and was cut to $29k/yr.....(you hate this union, but you're tied to it and helpless to do anything about it due to the pace of things). Also, your union promised you a vote to determine the outcome of your pension, but did not give you that vote!!!!

Remember, at this point, all you have is your seniority to try and recoup this gutting of your contract.

Suddenly, your screwed up union fails to negotiate anything less than DOH (still ALPA), so an arbitrator puts a bunch of guys ahead of you who are 17 yrs your junior. Some still in High school when you were hired. Be honest, how would you feel being screwed like that?

The straw that broke the camels back.....bye bye ALPA, at last.

I didn't pay ALPA dues for about a year before the NIC even came out.

Now, HP, you go out and sign a "contract" that puts you, personally, in this position. Or better yet, your union, that you are tied to, agrees to a "contract" and you can do nothing about it except throw the ALPA losers off the property.

THERE IS NO WAY YOU WOULD AGREE TO ANY OF THAT!!!. If you did, you would find that there is no way for you to ever regain your EARNED position over the last 25 yrs.

breeze

 

[Barrister]

You've had your answer many times now. My belief is that the Nic "award" amounts to nothing short of, quite literally, an immoral abomination, that should be thwarted if at all possible. For that reason; I, very obviously, see ZERO moral/ethical or spiritual compunction towards bringing it into being. If that's insufficently clear to you...well...then no expansion that I can envision will reasonably serve this discussion further.

I care not in the slightest about "process" here, "Binding Arbitration"/etc, but what results would attend such.

It is morally unethical to place a new hire senior to a 17 year never furloughed dues paying union member. And NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON OUTSIDE OF THE WEST
disagrees except BB and Trader Jake and of course NIC himself. NIC was pissed that theEast would not cut their own throats . If you boil that down to "yea but you agreed" it is a simpleton point of view.....due an approriate level of consideration.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

You've had your answer many times now. My belief is that the Nic "award" amounts to nothing short of, quite literally, an immoral abomination, that should be thwarted if at all possible. For that reason; I, very obviously, see ZERO moral/ethical or spiritual compunction towards bringing it into being. If that's insufficently clear to you...well...then no expansion that I can envision will reasonably serve this discussion further.

I care not in the slightest about "process" here, "Binding Arbitration"/etc, but what results would attend such.

It is morally unethical to place a new hire senior to a 17 year never furloughed dues paying union member. And NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON OUTSIDE OF THE WEST
disagrees except BB and Trader Jake and of course NIC himself. NIC was pissed that theEast would not cut their own throats . If you boil that down to "yea but you agreed" it is a simpleton point of view.....due an approriate level of consideration.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Move2CLT]

Ok, you've got 25 yrs of hard earned experience ( I am sure you have earned it). Let's say that your pay, promotions, schedules, etc are based on your 25 yrs on the job. Also, you are represented by a union who has let the company gut your contract and given away your retirement, which was projected to be about $90k/yr and was cut to $29k/yr.....(you hate this union, but you're tied to it and helpless to do anything about it due to the pace of things). Also, your union promised you a vote to determine the outcome of your pension, but did not give you that vote!!!!

Remember, at this point, all you have is your seniority to try and recoup this gutting of your contract.

Suddenly, your screwed up union fails to negotiate anything less than DOH (still ALPA), so an arbitrator puts a bunch of guys ahead of you who are 17 yrs your junior. Some still in High school when you were hired. Be honest, how would you feel being screwed like that?

The straw that broke the camels back.....bye bye ALPA, at last.

I didn't pay ALPA dues for about a year before the NIC even came out.

Now, HP, you go out and sign a contract that puts you, personally, in this position. Or better yet, your union that you are tied to agrees to a contract and you can do nothing about it except throw the ALPA losers off the property. There is no way you would agree to any of that. If you did, you would find that there is no way for you to ever regain what you have EARNED in the last 25 yrs.

breeze

And now imagine a pilot who blames everyone else for his problems. And imagine that pilot demanding others make up for his career shortfall. Imagine that pilot never being accountable for his actions.

Time to accept the hole you dug for yourself and move on.

 

[Move2CLT]

It is morally unethical to place a new hire senior to a 17 year never furloughed dues paying union member. And NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON OUTSIDE OF THE WEST
disagrees except BB and Trader Jake and of course NIC himself. NIC was pissed that theEast would not cut their own throats . If you boil that down to "yea but you agreed" it is a simpleton point of view.....due an approriate level of consideration.

NICDOA
NPJB

Its morally unethical to try and rebuild one's career at the expense of another. Its morally unethical to not honor your agreement for a final and binding arbitration.

So save it as you're the last person to discuss ethics.

And everyone outside the east disagrees and the includes arbitrators, judges, and the company.

 

[EastUS1]

Oh, to meet this windbag in person...

Oh No!...Please spare my frail old heart the stress from the utter awe that would naturally result from meeting an actual "Spartan" 😉

PS: Ostrich plumes?...I knew Spartans had "interesting" customs..but really..You might want to keep fetishes like that to yourself 😉

 

[HPearlyretiree]

HP,

Ok, you've got 25 yrs of hard earned experience ( I am sure you have earned it). Let's say that your pay, promotions, schedules, etc are based on your 25 yrs on the job. Also, you are represented by a union who has let the company gut your contract and given away your retirement, which was projected to be about $90k/yr and was cut to $29k/yr.....(you hate this union, but you're tied to it and helpless to do anything about it due to the pace of things). Also, your union promised you a vote to determine the outcome of your pension, but did not give you that vote!!!!

Remember, at this point, all you have is your seniority to try and recoup this gutting of your contract.

Suddenly, your screwed up union fails to negotiate anything less than DOH (still ALPA), so an arbitrator puts a bunch of guys ahead of you who are 17 yrs your junior. Some still in High school when you were hired. Be honest, how would you feel being screwed like that?

The straw that broke the camels back.....bye bye ALPA, at last.

I didn't pay ALPA dues for about a year before the NIC even came out.

Now, HP, you go out and sign a "contract" that puts you, personally, in this position. Or better yet, your union, that you are tied to, agrees to a "contract" and you can do nothing about it except throw the ALPA losers off the property.

THERE IS NO WAY YOU WOULD AGREE TO ANY OF THAT!!!. If you did, you would find that there is no way for you to ever regain your EARNED position over the last 25 yrs.

breeze

No, because I won't work for job that requires me to join a union. If I don't like my job, or my pay, I go to another company, its nice to be hired on your merit and your achievements. Sorry that the old pre merger USAirways screwed you. New company now, AWA pilots don't deserve to be screwed over by your union. Your side agreed to binding arbitration, live by your agreement.

Life isn't fair, but life isn't fair for everyone, that makes it fair.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Its morally unethical to try and rebuild one's career at the expense of another. Its morally unethical to not honor your agreement for a final and binding arbitration.

So save it as you're the last person to discuss ethics.

And everyone outside the east disagrees and the includes arbitrators, judges, and the company.

It was morally unethical for AWA to save USAirways and keep you all on the payroll.

 

[nic4us]

You've had your answer many times now. My belief is that the Nic "award" amounts to nothing short of, quite literally, an immoral abomination, that should be thwarted if at all possible. For that reason; I, very obviously, see ZERO moral/ethical or spiritual compunction towards bringing it into being. If that's insufficently clear to you...well...then no expansion that I can envision will reasonably serve this discussion further.

I care not in the slightest about "process" here, "Binding Arbitration"/etc, but what results would attend such.

You have me completely confused on two topics.

George Bush jr. is somehow held in very low esteem because he voluntarily joined the National Guard and took advantage of an opportunity afforded him and that was wrong because why? or, more specifically, how does it differ from the many thousands who also voluntarily joined the service of their chosing in order to influence their assignment, like say, oh, seeking flight training?

Second....it is your opinion that the Nic is an "immoral abomination" so you want to stop it....sounds like Jame Fonda's opinion and reasoning of a certain conflict that you are accusing Bush jr. of dodging. Are you really rationalizing that your skewed opinion of a fair and equitable seniority distribution at a newly found corporation is "immoral", and therefore all civil protocol can be abandoned?

 

[HPearlyretiree]

You know what's fun about EastUS1's postings? He uses so many words (often wrong and incorrectly applied) to say so little. He has such a shallow understanding of the underlying issues that he tries to overcompensate by taking on an 18th century style to masks the ignorance that is nonetheless glaring. Suppose he wrote with a clarity and brevity that reflected his understanding of what he's talking about.

Wait, he does!

Oh, to meet this windbag in person and see the ostrich plume he sticks in his uniform hat. I imagine a short, fat, introvert in a Captain Hook outfit.

I shall stand watch my good sir and good day!!

His posts lack depth, like a summer rain in the desert. I tried to get him to focus, but he still is racing in circles to avoid the central point, that of living up to actual signed agreements that you swore you would live up to. Its like playing poker, going "all in" and losing, and asking the dealer for your money back because you didn't get the outcome you thought you would get.

Arrogant, entitlement thought, thankfully, outside of the tiny cadre of USAPA folk they are universally mocked and laughed at.

 

[EastUS1]

You have me completely confused on two topics.

George Bush jr. is somehow held in very low esteem because he voluntarily joined the National Guard and took advantage of an opportunity afforded him and that was wrong because why?


Second....it is your opinion that the Nic is an "immoral abomination" so you want to stop it....sounds like Jame Fonda's opinion and reasoning of a certain conflict that you are accusing Bush jr. of dodging. Are you really rationalizing that your skewed opinion of a fair and equitable seniority distribution at a newly found corporation is "immoral", and therefore all civil protocol can be abandoned?

Wow!..You're "confused" for certain. Junior Bush intentionally avoided conflict. What part of that do you not understand or otherwise even pretend to respect? Nevermind..it's not like you've any personal reference for such ideas anyway.

"sounds like Jame Fonda's opinion.." OK..now you've blown right by merely "confused" and landed straight in the middle of incoherent, babbling nonsense.

"Are you really rationalizing that your skewed opinion of a fair and equitable seniority distribution at a newly found corporation is "immoral". Huh?..."your skewed opinion....is "immoral"? OK..now both of us are apparently a bit "confused" 😉