June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Claxon]

The proof of the poor western negotiating is borne out in their 330 pay and A321 pay. Not even in bankruptcy and they book the lowest 330 rate and match the 321 pay with no override. Just like their 757 pay. All done out of bankruptcy. Pathetic.

 

[Move2CLT]

The proof of the poor western negotiating is borne out in their 330 pay and A321 pay. Not even in bankruptcy and they book the lowest 330 rate and match the 321 pay with no override. Just like their 757 pay. All done out of bankruptcy. Pathetic.

You do realize you're at the bottom of the industry in pay don't you?

 

[luvthe9]

Next time you ride a van with them,ask if AWA was their first choice in airline jobs. They will shift uncomfortably in their seats. I guarantee it.

How true, I have seen this so many times.

 

[Claxon]

You do realize you're at the bottom of the industry in pay don't you?

The westerners without being under the bankruptcy judges thumb agree to a LOA 93 A 330 rate. Then one up it by taking A321 s at the same rate as a 320. That is shrewd


negotiating. AWA negotiating produced the closest rate to
a LOA 93 A 320 rate among all airlines. Done without bankruptcy court. Embarrassing.

skill. Add that to the lowest 757 rate in the industry. Unbelievable.

 

[Keroseneuser]

It has been usapa that has been trying to screw the west .

But welcome to our world where Parker is only concerned about the majority. Funny how now that you east guys are not the majority you are looking for unity from the west.

Parker does not have to talk to US. He has APA and they will soon be the bargaining agent. Usapa made themselves irrelevant long ago.

Welcome to the minority.

Never said I was looking for unity from the west. Quite the opposite. I still cannot support anything that throws guys I have worked with for years under the bus.

Have you been reading the AA forums and talking to their guys? They want no part of NIC, it puts younger guys ahead of a lot of their older guys. As you said they will be the majority and calling the shots. The comments I made have nothing to do with APA. This is about what appears to be Tempe's "ace in the hole" concerning the merger. It looks like east and west are expendable and like it or not your and my only chance to keep that from happening is USAPA.

Every indication is that APA is treating this as a 3 way integration, and if thats what APA wants, Doug is going to go with what they want, whatever it takes to do the deal. he will not give one thought to a potential DFR that most likely would take 5 to 8 years to go through thru the courts from such a small percentage of the total pilot list. Getting AA is all he is thinking about.

My comments concern the fact that some of the east and nearly all of the west are primed to jump right into this going on nothing more than "Doug said no furloughs on the airways side" as move2clt pointed out. It has been proven that nothing doug says is worth spit unless it is backed up by a signed contract, then it still has to be grieved most of the time. Right now APA is the only ones that have anything that resembles a signed contract.

Under this APA takes over with their agreement in hand, and unless we have something in a contract that says differently they will be the only ones protected from layoffs. Potentially tempe could gut the east and west massivley and there would really be nothing we could do about it........unless USAPA can get a transition agreement that protects us from that. Massive damage could be done before we ever got to the mac/bond phase of things.

So no I don't expect unity over our seniority issue, but like it or not USAPA is the only shot you and I have at protection from the whims of Tempe.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Getting AA is all he is thinking about.

But DP and APA would wait years (6-8 you say?) for a merger just because of ?????

With that forecast DP and APA won't have a say - the creditors would shoot a merger with US down rather than wait for their money...

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Never said I was looking for unity from the west. Quite the opposite. I still cannot support anything that throws guys I have worked with for years under the bus.

Have you been reading the AA forums and talking to their guys? They want no part of NIC, it puts younger guys ahead of a lot of their older guys. As you said they will be the majority and calling the shots. The comments I made have nothing to do with APA. This is about what appears to be Tempe's "ace in the hole" concerning the merger. It looks like east and west are expendable and like it or not your and my only chance to keep that from happening is USAPA.

Every indication is that APA is treating this as a 3 way integration, and if thats what APA wants, Doug is going to go with what they want, whatever it takes to do the deal. he will not give one thought to a potential DFR that most likely would take 5 to 8 years to go through thru the courts from such a small percentage of the total pilot list. Getting AA is all he is thinking about.

My comments concern the fact that some of the east and nearly all of the west are primed to jump right into this going on nothing more than "Doug said no furloughs on the airways side" as move2clt pointed out. It has been proven that nothing doug says is worth spit unless it is backed up by a signed contract, then it still has to be grieved most of the time. Right now APA is the only ones that have anything that resembles a signed contract.

Under this APA takes over with their agreement in hand, and unless we have something in a contract that says differently they will be the only ones protected from layoffs. Potentially tempe could gut the east and west massivley and there would really be nothing we could do about it........unless USAPA can get a transition agreement that protects us from that. Massive damage could be done before we ever got to the mac/bond phase of things.

So no I don't expect unity over our seniority issue, but like it or not USAPA is the only shot you and I have at protection from the whims of Tempe.

Usapa will not, can not protect anyone. They have been cut out of the process. You guys are about to get a taste of what the west has been going through for the last 4 years. Don't fool yourself. Usapa is worthless.

Btw the west is not excited about this merger. The money is ok not great. The work rules will suck. It will be an improvement for you and backwards for us. The good thing about this merger is usapa goes away, the us airways name goes away, the east pilots become a minority.

But we are under no illusion that we are along for the ride just like you east guys.

 

[Keroseneuser]

But DP and APA would wait years (6-8 you say?) for a merger just because of ?????

With that forecast DP and APA won't have a say - the creditors would shoot a merger with US down rather than wait for their money...

Jim

You really don't expect a court to let 1500 or so pilots hold up a merger of this scale with billions at stake to who knows how many companies like Boeing, and all the other creditors and investors over a DFR from a failed integration from almost a decade ago do you?

I don't think you are going to see that, not with almost assured pressure from congressmen and senators from all the affected districts and states. If Dougs merger plans are good enough to get the investors and creditors on board with him, that means it will probably be good enough to let a DFR happen and worry about it years later.

No, I think in that case you will see a ruling similar to addington. Issue a threat of some possible financial liability at some unknown time down the road, and let the merger complete.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Usapa will not, can not protect anyone. They have been cut out of the process. You guys are about to get a taste of what the west has been going through for the last 4 years. Don't fool yourself. Usapa is worthless.

Btw the west is not excited about this merger. The money is ok not great. The work rules will suck. It will be an improvement for you and backwards for us. The good thing about this merger is usapa goes away, the us airways name goes away, the east pilots become a minority.

But we are under no illusion that we are along for the ride just like you east guys.

Hey I feel the same way with one exception, I agree that in long run APA will be the better way to go, only difference between us is I am not excited about USAPA being cut out of this process like you are. Hate USAPA all you want, but right now they are the ONLY chance we have of not getting screwed, you included.

 

[EastUS1]

Funny how now that you east guys are not the majority you are looking for unity from the west.

".... looking for unity from the west."...? Be serious 😉

 

[dca319]

Hey I feel the same way with one exception, I agree that in long run APA will be the better way to go, only difference between us is I am not excited about USAPA being cut out of this process like you are. Hate USAPA all you want, but right now they are the ONLY chance we have of not getting screwed, you included.

I am curious as to what you think USAPA can do for us to keep us from getting screwed. We essentially been cut out of the process from the beginning and there is an injunction on us. LUV failed to answer my question so I ask you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You really don't expect a court to let 1500 or so pilots hold up a merger of this scale with billions at stake to who knows how many companies like Boeing, and all the other creditors and investors over a DFR from a failed integration from almost a decade ago do you?

Absolutely. First, Judges try cases with tons of money on the line all the time. Second, it wasn't a "failed" integration - it was the majority trying to inflict it's will on the minority and only delaying the inevitable. Parker has a valid integrated list and has had it for 5 years. Third, it's those creditors that will be worrying about the billions of dollars.

If you, Parker, or the APA want to shoot down a merger using 3 lists is a sure way to do it...

Jim

 

[EastUS1]

If you, Parker, or the APA want to shoot down a merger using 3 lists is a sure way to do it...

BS.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Your middle name???

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

You really don't expect a court to let 1500 or so pilots hold up a merger of this scale with billions at stake to who knows how many companies like Boeing, and all the other creditors and investors over a DFR from a failed integration from almost a decade ago do you?

I don't think you are going to see that, not with almost assured pressure from congressmen and senators from all the affected districts and states. If Dougs merger plans are good enough to get the investors and creditors on board with him, that means it will probably be good enough to let a DFR happen and worry about it years later.

No, I think in that case you will see a ruling similar to addington. Issue a threat of some possible financial liability at some unknown time down the road, and let the merger complete.

Find a copy of the APA term sheet and read it.

The American pilots are going to get a new contract. We do not go onto that contract until the seniority list is IMPLEMENTED. So if you guys want to mess around and delay this thing for years so be it. But you are not going to get paid.

A small correction. This merger is not going to be held up by 3000 east pilots.

Judge silver should rule soon. No usapa no appeal no delay.
No usapa APA takes on all contracts and obligations. Think that the APA wants to take that on by using 3 lists? No usapa, no DFR case, no delay.