June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Next time you ride a van with them,ask if AWA was their first choice in airline jobs. They will shift uncomfortably in their seats. I guarantee it.

And next time you ride a van with the easterners, ask if they let their daddy vote? They will shift uncomfortably in their seats. I guarantee it.

 

[Move2CLT]

BS.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Move2CLT]

The proof of the poor western negotiating is borne out in their 330 pay and A321 pay. Not even in bankruptcy and they book the lowest 330 rate and match the 321 pay with no override. Just like their 757 pay. All done out of bankruptcy. Pathetic.

The proof of poor eastern negotiating is borne out in their willingness to give up their pensions so easily and to assume LOA 93 rates and stick with them for so long voluntarily. Even more pathetic.

 

[Move2CLT]

...closest rate to a LOA 93 A 320 rate among all airlines.

Question:

Who is at LOA 93 rates?

 

[HPearlyretiree]

But, But...Your Holiness!...How can you be so cruel!?...A poor, unworthy parishoner who "opened a window to his soul" shouldn't be turned away from "the church" so crassly! 😉

Here you are, yet again, wallowing with people you fantasize yourself superior to, by way of your elitist notions of being one just too good to ever demean yourself by unionized employment...note that you needn't concern yourself with any issues of "stupid seniority", accuse others of never having to "work too hard", and of course, feel some extremely perverted need to pretentiously assume yourself as even morally superior...by way of what strangely structured fantasies one can only guess at. "I have transferable skills and I don't have to be in a stupid seniority placement at a new job... " and "I'd tell you to work hard, but you don't have to, you have seniority! " being direct quotes from your..umm..wisdom here...while you ramble on in a thread concerning unions and seniority. Individuals like yourself are a sad lot indeed. You do have my honest sympathy.....Seriously; you really do need a good deal of professional help.

That you could agree with anyone posting "I'm sure that Hanoi Jane felt precisely the same way.." evidences an interesting pathology of it's self 😉

I don't consider myself superior to you, but you obviously feel inferior to me, subconsciously.

Blah, blah blah.

What part of Binding Arbitration do you not understand?

 

[EastUS1]

I don't consider myself superior to you, but you obviously feel inferior to me, subconsciously.

Blah, blah blah.

What part of Binding Arbitration do you not understand?

Sigh! What part of Hopeless Case do you not understand? The sorriest village idiot wouldn't continue "asking" any question so many times, that's been previously addressed and answered...Unless...said sad person, was suffering such a misplaced, ponderous ego, so epic in proportion, as to allow even the assumption that some alteration in answers would come from merely the mindless repetition of it....An "interesting" mindset indeed...and one that would easily explain "observations" such as :"but you obviously feel inferior to me, subconsciously."

Enjoy your life of infantile fantasy, within which, your determined entrenchment is sadly apparent...As previously noted; You seriously need a good deal of professional help....Period.

 

[EastCheats]

US Airways Brand Under Fire

By Darren Shannon
Source: Aviation Daily

May 21 , 2012
The personal animosity generated by US Airways’ very public advances toward AMR Corp.’s American Airlines division and the union furor that preceded that action have obscured something very important that is about to occur in the U.S. airline industry: Regardless of who is involved, more consolidation is coming, and it will likely bring an end to US Airways.

Airline managers for years have espoused the benefits of consolidation, noting that the U.S. can support only a certain number of major airlines if the sector is to produce sustained profits. All manner of industries have already passed through the evolution with great success, the argument goes, so why not the airline business?
There are still opponents, but year after year of dramatic losses, compounding the effects of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, provided enough reason for the authorities, under the auspices of two divergent political ideologies, to grant the airlines their wish. Decreasing Numbers.

The number of airlines quickly started to dwindle, with the list of “big” international operators shrinking each year until we ended up with the current tally of four: United Airlines, Delta Air Lines, American Airlines and US Airways, with Southwest Airlines, as always, operating parallel to this group—unsurprisingly—through its own consolidation efforts.

It would be foolhardy to believe it will end there, given the lucrative benefits of consolidation, but it is not clear how the lineup will change.
If US Airways’ CEO Doug Parker has his way, he will repeat his achievement from 2005, when America West Airlines took control of US Airways as it was proceeding through its second Chapter 11 reorganization. This time, Parker has set his sights higher—he wants to take the helm of American Airlines, one of the world’s most recognizable airline brands.

Parker has generated a whirlwind of support from Wall Street and American’s own unionized workforce for this plan, as well as an army of new experts who have emerged from obscurity, although it is far from certain how loyal any of these supporters are. And there are too few publicly available details at the moment for Parker’s bid to pass a basic litmus test.

Despite the lack of clarity surrounding Parker’s plan, it is clear he had to make the move. AMR’s leadership team, which has been headed by Tom Horton since the day the airline filed for Chapter 11, may be dismissive of the US Airways proposal, but they also intended to participate in further industry consolidation, albeit on their terms.

Even before US Airways made its bid public, Horton was promoting the concept of a revived AMR emerging from the darkness of unprofitability to resume its rightful place as a leading global airline in charge of its destiny and forging a new industry dynamic that would include further link-ups.

A new AMR, however, would view US Airways with little interest. Indeed, a study commissioned several years ago by AMR concludes that it would be the least desirable partnership available. AMR’s attention instead is focused on the next tier of domestic airlines, with JetBlue Airways and Alaska Air Group as likely candidates, that could strengthen American in specific markets, the East or West Coast or the Caribbean, for instance. While those eyeing investment opportunities salivate at the idea, AMR could simply bolster its relationship with extensive code-shares (as it already has with Alaska) or the joint ventures it has developed with British Airways and Japan Airlines that closely mimic the antitrust immunization deals favored by Delta and United but without the financial and disclosure commitments that require regulatory approval. Extensive code-shares or joint ventures could enable AMR to develop feeder routes across the U.S. with minimal investment while reinforcing its new partners’ networks with the sales support that only large operations can provide. And AMR could perhaps supply some reciprocal traffic from its own network and those of its trans-oceanic partners as well.

In a perfect world, AMR could expand without the inconvenience or cost of combining disparate workforces while helping to limit the potential upheaval of new entrants pressuring those second-tier operators. And it would marginalize US Airways, which AMR believes has little scope for growth in its hub markets in Phoenix, Charlotte, N.C., and Philadelphia, and allow the remaining “Big Three” to build on a domestic capacity initiative started three years ago that has already boosted U.S. load factors to industry highs.

It is too early to say if either of these concepts could succeed, but if they do, the eventual demise of US Airways in its current form would be almost guaranteed. And if it does, it would behoove us all to remember that few people seemed to care.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Find a copy of the APA term sheet and read it.

The American pilots are going to get a new contract. We do not go onto that contract until the seniority list is IMPLEMENTED. So if you guys want to mess around and delay this thing for years so be it. But you are not going to get paid.

A small correction. This merger is not going to be held up by 3000 east pilots.

Judge silver should rule soon. No usapa no appeal no delay.
No usapa APA takes on all contracts and obligations. Think that the APA wants to take that on by using 3 lists? No usapa, no DFR case, no delay.

The AA folks I have talked to, as well as the info we have seen in print from them does not seem to support your view. What happens if silver passes the buck like the others have done and APA wants nothing to do with NIC? On the other hand Silver may do something the others didn't and say NIC has to be used in the awa/usairways merger. Does that still apply when it is no longer an awa/usair merger? Probably take a couple more hearings and months more to figure that one out.

I think it is going to come down to 2 main things. What is the quickest way doug can complete the deal and get his money, and what integration method is best for the APA pilots. And when I say best i mean best seniority wise, not from a legal standpoint. I think if it is dealing with a dfr suit from 1600 pilots vs. better position for the pilots they will go with the pilots. The argument figuring out if APA is even on the hook for a failed and incomplete integration from 3 unions, and by that time probably 10 years ago will surely eat up a couple years at least.

In the end you may get exactly what you want, a NIC ruling and USAPA's demise, right before Doug honors AA's no furlough clause and tosses most of the affected parties out on furlough. As you said we don't have that contract with the no furlough clause until integration with AA is complete.

I don't think when the dust settles its going to matter what the east or the west wanted. Just like Reno and TWA it will go however APA and managment wants it to go. I think the only sure thing is that the hardcore easts DOH dream and the wests NIC dream wont be included in whatever the end result is.

Time will tell.

 

[EastUS1]

I don't think when the dust settles its going to matter what the east or the west wanted. Just like Reno and TWA it will go however APA and managment wants it to go. I think the only sure thing is that the hardcore easts DOH dream and the wests NIC dream wont be included in whatever the end result is.

Time will tell.

Pretty much....

 

[Move2CLT]

The AA folks I have talked to, as well as the info we have seen in print from them does not seem to support your view. What happens if silver passes the buck like the others have done and APA wants nothing to do with NIC?

First off, If Silver "passes the buck" its considered a win for the west. By not specifically absolving the company of legal liability DFR2 brings, they'll take the more conservative route and use the Nic.

Second, and I don't understand where you east guys get this from, APA doesn't care what list we submit to them. They'll be slotted with whatever we give them so they don't care.

Then only thing they care about (as does Parker) is the delay DFR2 will bring. As Addington was overturned on ripeness only, the merit will be enough to get an injunction put on APA and the company to prevent them from using a non-Nic list.

So again, Silver has to say the company is free and clear to use the Nic for you easties to win. The other two answers mean the company will use the Nic.

And again, APA wouldn't care what list we submit as they get slotted with whatever. They only care about this deal going through to avoid working for a management team they hate under abrogated contracts.

On the other hand Silver may do something the others didn't and say NIC has to be used in the awa/usairways merger. Does that still apply when it is no longer an awa/usair merger? Probably take a couple more hearings and months more to figure that one out.

It sure does apply. And I doubt it will take more hearings as Hummel said he'd end the litigation.

I think it is going to come down to 2 main things. What is the quickest way doug can complete the deal and get his money, and what integration method is best for the APA pilots. And when I say best i mean best seniority wise, not from a legal standpoint. I think if it is dealing with a dfr suit from 1600 pilots vs. better position for the pilots they will go with the pilots. The argument figuring out if APA is even on the hook for a failed and incomplete integration from 3 unions, and by that time probably 10 years ago will surely eat up a couple years at least.

Doug will go with the Nic - period. DFR2 will come with an injunction and shut down the merger. Nothing else can shut down this merger like DFR2 and Parker knows this. All Silver has to do is NOT absolve the company of liability and its done. Nic is it.

In the end you may get exactly what you want, a NIC ruling and USAPA's demise, right before Doug honors AA's no furlough clause and tosses most of the affected parties out on furlough. As you said we don't have that contract with the no furlough clause until integration with AA is complete.

Doug has stated that no furloughs apply to US as well. And our attrition alone will keep anyone from being furloughed.

I don't think when the dust settles its going to matter what the east or the west wanted. Just like Reno and TWA it will go however APA and managment wants it to go. I think the only sure thing is that the hardcore easts DOH dream and the wests NIC dream wont be included in whatever the end result is.

Time will tell.

I guarantee you the Nic will be used in the SLI with AA. The other guarantee, because it has come to pass, is the DOH will NEVER be used.

 

[Move2CLT]

Pretty much....

Pretty much what? That DOH will never be used?

Then I agree.

 

[EastUS1]

Pretty much what?

If you can't glean the "what" from the quoted material...I just can't help you. Hint: read it. 😉

 

[Beancounter]

You know, the majority of the east pilots on here I can understand and communicate with. Claxton and Luvthe9? Where do I start? Every time I read one of their posts, a certain song comes to mind. I think posting it is better than writing a response:

http://youtu.be/8qoCq-KsmZU

Bean

 

[Keroseneuser]

I am curious as to what you think USAPA can do for us to keep us from getting screwed. We essentially been cut out of the process from the beginning and there is an injunction on us. LUV failed to answer my question so I ask you.

At some point USAPA will have to be involved as the RLA barganing agent for the USAirways pilots. So right now the answer would be nothing that I can think of. My question to you is this...Given what is going on now, how do you think accepting the NIC as you are suggesting is going to change a single thing? Doug not talking to us has nothing to do with NIC or no NIC, USAPA or no USAPA. Doug not talking to us is because we are his furlough fodder and expendable assests to get the AA deal done and honor the pay and no furlough agreements he signed with AA unions.

Now the question I ask, if as I and many suspect we are indeed his furlough fodder prior to any seniority integration, which way do you want it to be, A NIC list with nearly 100% of the furloughs coming from east pilots (bottom 1/3 of active east list is stapled below all west with nic) and no east west min fleet counts. Or current setup with min fleet counts on east and west, of which both of us are basically at?

One scenario might let him gut half the airline and "right size" the airline prior to AA integration, the current scenario might limit him to only getting rid of the 190's since they are not counted in the min fleet numbers. So at some point unless he can just make the current contracts and transition agreement go away he is going to have to talk to USAPA.

I think he is hoping that both east and west act as some are acting, figure AA solves all our problems and we give up what little defense we have in the form of scope and transition agreement before anything is actually completed giving him the ability to do what he wants to our fleet and headcount.

Now if we had a signed contract from the company stating that WE also had a no furlough clause and a min fleet count either combined east west or just min fleet count as we have now I would be more inclined to explore the possibility of your position. But your position without positive and legal contractual protections in place for both east and west in the face of this AA merger is a very dangerous place to be with this mgmt. team in my opinion.

 

[EastUS1]

I think posting it is better than writing a response:

While necessarily not agreeing with some statements made here: The thread's been overdue a video in any case Bean.