June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

The AA folks I have talked to, as well as the info we have seen in print from them does not seem to support your view. What happens if silver passes the buck like the others have done and APA wants nothing to do with NIC? On the other hand Silver may do something the others didn't and say NIC has to be used in the awa/usairways merger. Does that still apply when it is no longer an awa/usair merger? Probably take a couple more hearings and months more to figure that one out.

It does not matter who you have talked to. What matters is what is written on the page. Read the term sheet. That is where my view comes from.

I doubt silver punts. She has been asked to answer a question. She wil answer the question. Yes it still applies. Nothing has gotten rid of the arbitration or what has happened prior to the next merger.

Read the term sheet. Until the seniority list is IMPLEMENTED the contract does not apply to the us airways pilots. The longer you delay the longer you don't get paid. My guess would be that silver rules before the merger is finished.

I agree that Parker wants to get this merger done fast. Why do you think he structured it to cut usapa out of the deal? After 4 years he knows east pilots are an impediment. So he removed the impediment.

Think about it. What is the fast easiest way to the end? Use an arbitrated accepted list or a 3 way made up list. Watch the crew news. When asked who the players are, who pays for it, how do you create the structure? No idea. The NMB says us airways has one union not 2.

How long would it take for the west to have usapa write us a 2 million check, elect a west BPR, find interview and hire a merger lawyer and merger committee? Or have usapa the certified bargaining agent submit the arbitrated accepted list?

How long do you want to wait for a new contract?

 

[EastUS1]

Why do you think he structured it to cut usapa out of the deal? After 4 years he knows east pilots are an impediment. So he removed the impediment.

"After 4 years he knows east pilots are an impediment."...Ummm..."Brilliant" analysis. What else could possibly "make sense" here? Now then; Why do you think he's cut ALL US labor groups "out of the deal"? I'd suggest that some reasoned concern be addressed to that as well.....Just a thought....

 

[Move2CLT]

Now the question I ask, if as I and many suspect we are indeed his furlough fodder prior to any seniority integration, which way do you want it to be,

We are not furlough fodder so relax.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Doug has stated that no furloughs apply to US as well. And our attrition alone will keep anyone from being furloughed.

As I mentioned a few pages ago when I pointed out the furloughs of late 2008 and the company stated reason for the furloughs. They issued a company wide letter that was hung in all the crew rooms with a simple statement. the furloughs were due to the high fuel costs, and if the oil price per barrel decreased below $ x amount the furlough would not happen. Fuel dropped not only back to the amount they specified prior to the furlough but a good bit lower than their specified number and yet they still furloughed the guys 2 months later. I am not sure how long they were out but it was over a year before the first of them were called back.

Considering his past practices Doug telling us the no furloughs apply to USAirways means exactly squat unless he is prepared to put in in writing in a side letter to the contract. If he wont add it to the contract, I don't believe a word of it.

 

[EastUS1]

Considering his past practices Doug telling us the no furloughs apply to USAirways means exactly squat unless he is prepared to put in in writing in a side letter to the contract. If he wont add it to the contract, I don't believe a word of it.

Agreed in full.

 

[cleardirect]

At some point USAPA will have to be involved as the RLA barganing agent for the USAirways pilots. So right now the answer would be nothing that I can think of. My question to you is this...Given what is going on now, how do you think accepting the NIC as you are suggesting is going to change a single thing? Doug not talking to us has nothing to do with NIC or no NIC, USAPA or no USAPA. Doug not talking to us is because we are his furlough fodder and expendable assests to get the AA deal done and honor the pay and no furlough agreements he signed with AA unions.

Now the question I ask, if as I and many suspect we are indeed his furlough fodder prior to any seniority integration, which way do you want it to be, A NIC list with nearly 100% of the furloughs coming from east pilots (bottom 1/3 of active east list is stapled below all west with nic) and no east west min fleet counts. Or current setup with min fleet counts on east and west, of which both of us are basically at?

One scenario might let him gut half the airline and "right size" the airline prior to AA integration, the current scenario might limit him to only getting rid of the 190's since they are not counted in the min fleet numbers. So at some point unless he can just make the current contracts and transition agreement go away he is going to have to talk to USAPA.

I think he is hoping that both east and west act as some are acting, figure AA solves all our problems and we give up what little defense we have in the form of scope and transition agreement before anything is actually completed giving him the ability to do what he wants to our fleet and headcount.

Now if we had a signed contract from the company stating that WE also had a no furlough clause and a min fleet count either combined east west or just min fleet count as we have now I would be more inclined to explore the possibility of your position. But your position without positive and legal contractual protections in place for both east and west in the face of this AA merger is a very dangerous place to be with this mgmt. team in my opinion.

I think you are beginning to see our position. Now if you east guys had abided by your agreement we would have had a contract in place. But as we sit today. The deal is between the company and APA. When the deal is done APA will be our union and they will bargain for us. Just like usapa has bargained for the west. Do you want the APA to treat you like you have treated the west? Will we soon being hearing cries of DFR from the east?

Do you think the APA will file an appeal of judge Silver? Will APA file a grievance over CofC? Or will the APA treat that grievance like usapa did west grievances? Just ignore them. How will that work for you? Majority rules is what you said. The APA will be the majority.

Yes we are in a dangerous place and you east pilots put us here. If usapa had acted like a responsible union Parker would not have cut out usapa.

 

[cleardirect]

"After 4 years he knows east pilots are an impediment."...Ummm..."Brilliant" analysis. What else could possibly "make sense" here? Now then; Why do you think he's cut ALL US labor groups "out of the deal"? I'd suggest that some reasoned concern be addressed to that as well.....Just a thought....

You are talking about what happen before the announcement. I know what the APA term sheet says.

Do you know what the flight attendant and TWU term sheets say? Are they cut out like usapa or at they involved now?

 

[Keroseneuser]

Yes we are in a dangerous place and you east pilots put us here. If usapa had acted like a responsible union Parker would not have cut out usapa.

What you fail to realize is Parker didn't cut out USAPA. Parker cut out EVERY union on the property! That alone tells me that as a whole east and west, from pilots right down to the USAirways employee taking reservation calls is potentially in deep sh%t. AA as a whole work group has full furlough protection from Doug and according to their BK filings needs to cut vast amounts of employees. I am pretty sure there is a reason that Doug is not talking with any of our unions. I hope I am very wrong about this.

 

[Keroseneuser]

You are talking about what happen before the announcement. I know what the APA term sheet says.

Do you know what the flight attendant and TWU term sheets say? Are they cut out like usapa or at they involved now?

As far as I know none of our unions are involved in whatever he has agreed to with AA. Do you have some other info?

 

[Phoenix]

BS.

Imagine using three lists. I mean why on earth would anyone use three lists. Wouldn't it make so much more sense to use two list, including one that the honorable Wake would now agree is currently and correctly being used.

 

[EastUS1]

What you fail to realize is Parker didn't cut out USAPA. Parker cut out EVERY union on the property! That alone tells me that as a whole east and west, from pilots right down to the USAirways employee taking reservation calls is potentially in deep sh%t. AA as a whole work group has full furlough protection from Doug and according to their BK filings needs to cut vast amounts of employees. I am pretty sure there is a reason that Doug is not talking with any of our unions. I hope I am very wrong about this.

Unfortunately...once more, that's how I see it as well.

Many seem so embroiled in the interminable west-east/east-west that they completely miss: "Parker cut out EVERY union on the property!"

 

[EastUS1]

Imagine using three lists. I mean why on earth would anyone use three lists. Wouldn't it make so much more sense to use two list, including one that the honorable Wake would now agree is currently and correctly being used.

Yeah...I didn't/don't see how 3 lists would magically "tank the merger" in any way....Way too much money at stake for that to even be a big blip on anyone's radar I'd think.

 

[Move2CLT]

As I mentioned a few pages ago when I pointed out the furloughs of late 2008 and the company stated reason for the furloughs. They issued a company wide letter that was hung in all the crew rooms with a simple statement. the furloughs were due to the high fuel costs, and if the oil price per barrel decreased below $ x amount the furlough would not happen. Fuel dropped not only back to the amount they specified prior to the furlough but a good bit lower than their specified number and yet they still furloughed the guys 2 months later. I am not sure how long they were out but it was over a year before the first of them were called back.

Considering his past practices Doug telling us the no furloughs apply to USAirways means exactly squat unless he is prepared to put in in writing in a side letter to the contract. If he wont add it to the contract, I don't believe a word of it.

Sure, and another terrorist attack can happen and we can be hit by a giant meteor, etc ad nauseum.

The window for that happening so that only we are furloughed and not the AA pilots is very small. And if oil hits $140, AA guys will be hitting the street as well.

What do you think will happen to you as a stand alone if oil goes up?

Like I said, attrition alone will keep any one of us from being furloughed.

 

[Move2CLT]

Yeah...I didn't/don't see how 3 lists would magically "tank the merger" in any way....Way too much money at stake for that to even be a big blip on anyone's radar I'd think.

It would shut it down with DFR2 and an injunction, that's how.

If it wasn't an issue, don't you think you'd have been working with Parker to get this done quicker? It seems to me he doesn't care much for your three way idea.

 

[EastUS1]

Like I said, attrition alone will keep any one of us from being furloughed.

I hope that proves true..but...I see absolutely zero basis from which to assume any such thing. If this merger happens; It's not readily foreseeable now, much less even the least bit clear, even what size operation will result.