June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

....... expecting APA and other AA unions to "protect" us. History shows that to be the last thing AA unions do in a merger. If APA for instance can ensure that all furloughs come from only the ex USAirways pilots you can bet your butt that is what they will do. We screw up and gut our only protections currently in effect and you can bet they will exploit it to protect their own.

Right now AA's back is againt the wall and they want what Doug is offering. If Doug completes the deal and we as a whole workgroup are not protected, history shows the AA unions will turn on us very fast.

Just the way I see it given the total lack of involvment mgmt. has given to a single workgroup at USAirways to date.

Excellent post sir. Once again...I truly wish there was something/anything I could disagree with in your observations. "Interesting TImes" ahead, for certain.

 

[traderjake]

Now if we do something stupid and let all our east west anamosity .............

You're four years too late.

Karma may plant it's boot up the East's *ss.

 

[EastUS1]

Don't you just love how he changes the subject in a lame attempt at deflection? Then top it off with an equally lame personal attack when cornered.

Actually what he really did before Pi was flew rubber dogshit in cargo planes through Southern Pines, NC.

Well...nothing dishonorable about flying rubber ds in cargo planes...Honest work is honest work/etc. Where it tipped over for me was not even the poster's "usual" need for having some simultaneously derogatory and "all knowing" BS to offer, ie: BoeingBoy: "I come from a generation that experienced Vietnam winding down where one couldn't automatically expect to move from a military cockpit to a civilian cockpit." ..when said poster had not the slightest personal history of any "military cockpit". That type of grandiose "association with all things" BS, I've grown to expect, and he certainly could of just gone "oops"..."I really didn't mean that about myself" and been done with it...BUT when confronted by that, via: "As if you ever strapped into a military cockpit"...he clearly felt some seriously, just plain sick need to offer the following: BoeingBoy: "LOL You have no idea what cockpits I've strappen into." Now...if that last isn't an overt attempt to misrepresent himself as something he never was...well...all can decide for themselves.

It's just a flippin' chat board...but..."If it ain't fittin'...it ain't fittin'..."

Oh well...perhaps he and the slightly psychotic HPearly can "two ship" again, congenially discuss the "virtues" of Hanoi Jane some more...and, in all ways possible, continue to provide us all with radiant, glowing beacons, faithfully guiding all down the proper path "Honorable people" should walk 😉

 

[Move2CLT]

Here is the possible scenario that I see the company exploiting if they can. Leaving our seniority issue long term out of it this is where I think we stand.

The company has cut out all the unions on the property not just USAPA so we are not dealing with just "Those troublesome pilots"

Right now we do in fact have some furlough protection in the form of the transition agreement. We have min fleet counts on both east and west and scope protections. Though as I understand it the scope protections we have is from the east contract which extends to the west via the transition agreement.

Now if we do something stupid and let all our east west anamosity push us into a joint list PRIOR to the AA transaction or prior to joint US/AA contract the way I understand it is the Transition agreement will cease to exist, as will all the min fleet protections east and west and all the scope on the west. Or at least I see it giving the company the ability to interpret it that way and running with it as we have seen them do on so many other contractual issues. I do not know how strong the transition agreement is concerning ratification vs. integrated list. Meaning the company may be able to side step the t/a without a ratified contract if we have a final seniority list done that is not being disputed in a court anywhere. Or Doug may need to get us to be greedy and vote in a quick contract (east/west joint w/o AA yet)with the pay rates he has promised AA but without the furlough protections he has agreed to with them.

in that case we could be going into a situation where we will still not be integrated with AA, but the deal is done and Doug has control. In that possible case AA will have full furlough protection and we will have nothing. The way they like to work I see the company "right sizing" the new airline to their liking prior to workforce integration with basically zero protections for PHX and only scope protections for the east.

If tempe was only cutting USAPA out of this process I could buy the west posters comments on here about USAPA's irrelevance to them. But they are doing the same thing to every workgroup on the property. I think that is leaving a huge hole for the company to attempt to exploit. They figure after all this time east and west workgroups will jump on the payrates he is talking about with AA pilots, mechs, f/a's etc and we will blindly go into this expecting APA and other AA unions to "protect" us. History shows that to be the last thing AA unions do in a merger. If APA for instance can ensure that all furloughs come from only the ex USAirways pilots you can bet your butt that is what they will do. We screw up and gut our only protections currently in effect and you can bet they will exploit it to protect their own.

Right now AA's back is againt the wall and they want what Doug is offering. If Doug completes the deal and we as a whole workgroup are not protected, history shows the AA unions will turn on us very fast.

Just the way I see it given the total lack of involvment mgmt. has given to a single workgroup at USAirways to date.

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Let's all be friends now so we can fight the APA together with no leverage and while under an injunction!

You need to calm down there chicken little.

In your past mergers, you guys were actually involved. At least this time, the APA and company is saving you from yourselves.

 

[EastUS1]

.....a pseudo-staple SLI with the APA where most of us are slotted in to the narrow body realm, we can fight for the scraps. We have new masters

Sheesh! I hate that the first thing we've actually agreed on in years....would be this, Pre 😉 Semi "smiley" face is by no means based on the surrounding circumstances the US group now faces....

 

[EastUS1]

... the APA and company is saving you from yourselves.

Mandatory drug test for probable use.....and make sure it covers all possible hallucinogens....

 

[nic4us]

Second, and I don't understand where you east guys get this from, APA doesn't care what list we submit to them. They'll be slotted with whatever we give them so they don't care.

It should be easy for anyone to understand, whether your part of this process or not. If you get slotted behind someone who is older than you, that person will retire before you, and eventually you'll gain that attrition. If your slotted behind someone younger than yourself, you will never gain that slot. It's very simple to understand.

One more thought on the SLI. Nic gave absolutely no weight to the furloughed pilots as well as no consideration towards who the majority was. AMR currently has quite a few pilots on furlough. I don't think they want an SLI based on any similar formula such as the nic list.

We all understand the effects of attrition and seniority integration, but, here is the glaring portion you leave out of your post.

If I am in a position of higher rank and status than someone else who it older than me, and that person is slotted in front of me, I do not gain the movement of their eventual attrition, I lose my position for the remainder of THEIR career. Also, if you are slotted behind someone who is younger than you, it is likely that they held a position of higher status, and therefore why should you be awarded THEIR career and gain their slot?

Further, if you are suggesting that seniority integration be arranged by DOB that is illegal as it unlawful to discriminate based on age.

 

[EastUS1]

If I am in a position of higher rank and status than someone else who it older than me, and that person is slotted in front of me, I do not gain the movement of their eventual attrition, I lose my position for the remainder of THEIR career. Also, if you are slotted behind someone who is younger than you, it is likely that they held a position of higher status, and therefore why should you be awarded THEIR career and gain their slot?

Further, if you are suggesting that seniority integration be arranged by DOB that is illegal as it unlawful to discriminate based on age.

" I do not gain the movement of their eventual attrition, I lose my position for the remainder of THEIR career." Wow!

"...it is likely that they held a position of higher status.."....It is "likely"..?. Whew!...not in my entire life, and I've spent volunteer time with mentally ill patients..have I EVER seen anyone better able to "rationalize" away...well...pretty much ANYTHING they see fit to. Most impressive indeed 😉

 

[Zone5]

Here is the question we need to be asking instead of slinging poo at each other.

Given that AA stated in feb. that they need to lay off 400 pilots, 2300 f/a's 4200 fleet service, and 4300 mechanics......

Also that Doug signed an agreement giving them furlough protection, as in no furloughs at all.

Also that to date i don't think Doug has even talked to any of our unions.

Where do you suppose he is planning on getting those workforce reductions from?

We better hope USAPA and the other unions on the property have at least some influence left. I think if we take what doug has offered APA as it sits we native USAirways folks both east and west are getting boned.

I don't for one second believe that Doug intends to pay east and west the numbers he has promised to APA. He never has before and with tempes history of ignoring contracts and work rules I dont think he really intends to pay all he has promised to APA either.

You may not like USAPA or agree with them on much of anything, but at the end of the day they are all we have standing between us and a royal hose job. Doug could not give a crap about east or west at this point. He has the AA employees to deal with, both east and west I am sure is completly expendable in his eyes if that is what it takes to make this deal happen. Its been over a month now, If he gave a crap about USAPA, AOL, AFA etc or any east or west association or employee we would have been approached by now. To date I don't think that has happened anywhere on the property in any meaningful way.

Hope I am wrong about this.

It's going to be the "3-3-3-1 Plan".

Three pilot groups.

Three contracts.

Three rates of pay.

One paint job.

seajay

 

[nic4us]

There are currently three lists being used and nobody can sue about it. How dare DP consider using those three lists... I mean imagine the jeopardy he would be in if he did some status qou sh1t in the midst of negotiations.

I suggest you take a look at what the company said about "status quo" in testimony during the DJ.

I will paraphrase and save myself the trouble of finding the quote.

The Nic is the status quo due to the TA.


How is it usapa supporters just can't get their head around the fact that the TA says SLI at LCC is the Nic....the end?

Do usapians still think the little lawyer was right, and by changing their name they could unilaterally abrogate a tripartite contract without the concurrence of the other two parties to the contract? If so, let me ask this.....how is that "we will get DOH by offering a cost neutral contract" line working out so far????

 

[dca319]

Michael Cleary took the easterners to the promised land. An AA transaction with no Nic. The easterners should be raising him high on their shoulders in gratitude. If the westerners think USAPA was used to circumvent the Nic? Either way, it did that exact deed. Nobody is fearful of the waning Leoniidas. They have insufficient funds, and a failed cause.

This post is completely absurd. Mike did more to hurt our cause and place us out of position for this merger. Your posts are horrid and you need to stop.

 

[dca319]

It's going to be the "3-3-3-1 Plan".

Three pilot groups.

Three contracts.

Three rates of pay.

One paint job.

seajay

I very much doubt that.

 

[EastUS1]

Your posts are horrid and you need to stop.

While I very rarely find agreement with that poster: Who TF are YOU to tell anyone they "need to stop"?...some "closet communist"? 😉 I find your posts "horrid", almost akin to an overly perfumed, and incessently waving White Flag...such doesn't afford me any sense that I should arrogantly "instruct" you, or anyone "to stop".

Grow Up.

 

[dca319]

Mandatory drug test for probable use.....and make sure it covers all possible hallucinogens....

I agree. Those that voted for Cleary and continue to praise him must be scrutinized.

 

[EastUS1]

I agree. Those that voted for Cleary and continue to praise him must be scrutinized.

Whew!...while no great Cleary fan myself...I'd thought the "closet communist" remark to be entirely tongue-in-cheek...no longer so sure of that, I'm afraid 😉 First..you're telling someone they "need to stop" posting...and now?..."must be scrutinized? Whew! 😉

Let me guess? = Ex "Serious" alpa? 😉