June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[autofixer]

You guys are nuts!

 

[EastUS1]

Any current snapshot at LCC would be Nic inclusive.

Again; if that's the case...to get that result, then the picture taken must be extensively photoshopped, to say the least, and isn't one at all reflective of where people now sit.

I still can't see where any advancement of the supposed logic inherent in the nic, ie; the snapshot at the time of a merger, allows anyone to assert that the same protocol shouldn't be employed at this point in time. Either such was logical for nic to use, or it wasn't. One can't have it both ways. If it was logical at that time...the same logic should sustain use of the same method now.

 

[EastUS1]

We were talking about a callout anyway,....

Yeah. How that went nuclear, even to the point of "dead bodies strewn", I'll never understand...Sheesh!

 

[cleardirect]

The hits just keep coming for the east. Why is it that all you guys so convinced that MDA was a winner for the east and somehow was going to kill the Nicolau award have failed to post this? The east sure is quick to post anything they can spin as a win and ignore anything that is a loss.

CONCLUSION
For the reasons set forth above, defendants did not breach their duty of fair representation. Summary judgment is granted to the defendants, and plaintiffs' Supplemental Complaint is dismissed. The Clerk of Court is directed to enter judgment for the defendants.
Dated: Brooklyn, New York
April 10,2012

It has been over a month since the judge dismissed the MDA case. After 7 years I know how you east guys hate to read the fact so I will post just a few of the more relevant statements from the judge. The opinion that MDA was mainline has now been established as just that, an incorrect opinion. The neutral finder of FACTS says that indeed you were furloughed at the time. That the Nicolau list is in fact correct.

I would also suggest taking the time to read the entire order as the judge reviews the Nicolau award in his order. As an outside neutral party he has nothing bad to say about the seniority list.

Although this sentence uses the word "recall" twice, based upon the undisputed documentary evidence, it is clear that a pilot who was "recall[ed] to a Large SJ position" was not "recall[ed]" to the mainline. Therefore, a furloughed US Airways pilot who was offered and accepted a position at MDA, would still have to wait his turn, in the order listed on the APL, to be recalled to fly on the mainline.

Pilots received letters on MDA letterhead offering them positions at "MidAtlantic Airways, a division of US Airways, Inc." These MD A offer letters did not state that the offers of employment constituted recall to the mainline.

Significantly, except under certain conditions enumerated in the Working Agreement, a furloughed pilot who refused recall to US Airways lost his place on the seniority list, while furloughed pilots who elected not to accept employment at MDA did not lose seniority standing. In sum, not only did the procedure of recall differ from an offer of employment at MDA, but there were different consequences for declining recall to the mainline and declining an offer of employment by MDA.

In granting leave to plaintiffs to file a supplemental complaint, I explained that, "[t]he alleged breach [of the DFR in the Supplemental Complaint] is not about the process or terms of the arbitration award ... but that the union knew of, and stipulated to, the introduction of an erroneous, previously-corrected seniority list during the arbitration proceedings." Id at *14.

So here we have the judge plainly told the MDA guys that this case was not about the result of the award and DFR was not going to change the award. Yet you east guys followed the pack over the cliff grasping at any straw trying to avoid the unavoidable.

BTW has the lawyer been paid for this case? Hope you all sent in lots of money to pay for another losing case.

Thus, accepting a job offer from MDA was not a recall to flight for the mainline. It was simply an acceptance of a job offer to fly for MidAtlantic Airways.

Since the List correctly identified the relevant employment data and the status of each pilot, the List submitted by ALPA to the Arbitration Board was factually accurate. No breach of the DFR could occur from submitting the accurate List. ALP A's actions in submitting the factually accurate List were not arbitrary because it was reasonable and rational to submit the accurate List.

Moreover, plaintiffs' new argument is essentially an attempt to resurrect issues that were previously dismissed by this court as untimely.

 

[traderjake]

You guys are nuts!

We have to fight about something!

 

[luvthe9]

Along for the ride easties. Just along for the ride.

Went to the APA Family Awareness meeting last week. They said they gave up a pay bump for the 321 to negotiate gains in other areas of the contract. They did address the issue that the 321 is nearly the same size as the 757, but the pay bump needed to be spent somewhere else.

Also, for what its worth, APA says US Airways has 500 retirements a year starting in 2 years, plus AMR has an additional 500 retirements/year starting in 2017. This means massive movement in seniority for everyone under the age of 60. Traditionally, APA says the level of disability leaves is a large number of the active flying list vacancies in addition to Age 65 retirements.

Nice job to those top notch AWA negotiators who got no 757 rate stand alone, and no 321 rate. On top of the crappy 330 rate they also notched. What a team!! Was that done in your third bankruptcy? Oh wait, it was done outside of bankruptcy. Sorry. It was just, done......

 

[Move2CLT]

Why is the west afraid of a 3 way? Do they feel they received a windfall in the NIC and might lose it?

Not afraid of it. There's just no reason for it.

 

[Move2CLT]

Nice job to those top notch AWA negotiators who got no 757 rate stand alone, and no 321 rate. On top of the crappy 330 rate they also notched. What a team!! Was that done in your third bankruptcy? Oh wait, it was done outside of bankruptcy. Sorry. It was just, done......

Again, luv babbles.

Worthless.

 

[Move2CLT]

We were talking about a callout anyway, not a flap setting. They just can't seem to get that through their heads I guess.

Driver...

How many accidents did you guys have with your fancy checklists?

 

[fodase]

Yep.

you dumba$$. why was the company dismissed from the addington ignoramus? I'll give you multiple choice since you cannot form a coherent thought.

The company was dismissed from the addington because?

A- The company is free to negotiate whatever list it wants

B- The company said the Nic. was the list and they had accepted no other list as required per TA

C- Judge Wake warned company that if he found that they collude with usapa to harm west they would be brought back in front of him.

D- B and C

 

[Graceson]

I fail to see how the LCC seniority list i.e. the Nic, does not "logically" state the position and status of the LCC pilots.

It’s the Court, stupid!

“It’s the economy, stupid!” A phrase coined by Clinton's campaign strategist, James Carville. Now it seems the phrase and the term “economy” is subbed with anything and everything mired in debate... here -- it’s the court, stupid! – probably applies.

ALPA’s Arbitration Board headed by George Nicolau resolved the issue of “fair and equitable” among other criteria. Most in attendance recognized the improbability of ratification and implementation. In regard to the agreement, separate ratification under ALPA merger policy never reached its conclusion, while an unmodified Nicolau list was delivered to Doug Parker as part of a transition agreement signed by all parties.

One degree of separation from the core issue – “Fair and Equitable.” The US Airways MEC filed a law suit in Superior Court of the District of Columbia against the America West MEC to vacate the Nicolau award.

Two degrees of separation from the core issue –“Fair and Equitable.” USAPA was born. The new union claims it is not bound by the former bargaining agent’s agreements.

Three degrees of separation – “Duty of Fair Representation and Harm.” This claim now becomes the topic of dispute. The original USAirways Pilots and the America West Pilots swap defendant/plaintiff roles, and a new Court process to decide breach of agreement and harm is launched. A seemingly commutated version of a aberrated dispute of “Fair and Equitable.” Federal Judge Neil Wake decides for the West Pilots.

A step or two back, Blending of one and two degree of separation from the core issue – The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ordered a dismissal of the DFR suit against USAPA as not ripe, notwithstanding the West Pilot’s right to refile. The court’s proffer seemed to preserve a presumed option that the original CBA suggested would be lost in admonition. That is-- “The former bargaining agent warned the new union that the elimination of separate ratification under ALPA merger policy with the election of USAPA would forever cement the unmodified Nicolau Award as the certified seniority list of the new US Airways.” The higher Circuit Court seemed to suggest that, under the dominion of a new bargaining agent and governed by its own internal process, an agreement might not be “cemented as unmodified.” This was contrary to the previous bargaining agent's inferred assertion that mocification could only occur by way of the previous bargaining agent's internal processes. The higher Circuit Court also seemed to bring the issue full circle, back to one degree of separation of the core issue –that is the process or policy of integration must meet the same high standards of “Fair and Equitable. The same high standards as those of the previous bargaining agent.

Four degrees of separation from the core issue – Declaratory Judgment. US Airways declaratory judgment, asking Judge Roslyn Silver to determine whether or not the Corporation would be liable should they accept anything other than the Nicolau. This is a revisit of; “The former bargaining agent warned the new union that the elimination of separate ratification under ALPA merger policy with the election of USAPA would forever cement the unmodified Nicolau Award as the certified seniority list of the new US Airways.” In this fourth degree of separation from the core issue, the Corporation requests the court decide their liable for being party to a three-way agreement. Again, this brings into question the previous bargaining agent’s admonishment:

–The agreement is modifiable (as inferred) under the policies and procedures of a previous bargaining agent, (though the process never reached conclusion).
–Or “...the elimination of separate ratification under ALPA merger policy with the election of USAPA would forever cement the unmodified Nicolau Award as the certified seniority list of the new US Airways.” It seems the higher Circuit Court has already cast reflections on this issue as well as the first degree core issue of “fair and reasonable.”

The answer is-- as long as the courts are deciding this issue and all its aberrated degrees of separation from the core issue, then there is no official SLI. Unless...the Corporation and the bargaining agents are cooperatively willing to accept a measured risk/reward liability and assume the collective responsibility of testing the leagal definition of "fair and equitable."

Starting over, without starting over.

 

[jetjok1]

Training is fine.....

And I was thinking of and should have replied directly to Cleardirects "We did not do flaps 3 until your east flt. Ops managers took over."

comment earlier, so here goes.

Clear....I don't do flaps 3 even after they took over, unless an engine is shutdown or there is windshear.


That is my exact scenario as well.

 

[jetjok1]

you dumba$$. why was the company dismissed from the addington ignoramus? I'll give you multiple choice since you cannot form a coherent thought.

The company was dismissed from the addington because?

A- The company is free to negotiate whatever list it wants

B- The company said the Nic. was the list and they had accepted no other list as required per

C- Judge Wake warned company that if he found that they collude with usapa to harm west they would be brought back in front of him.

D- B and C

Ah come on...........callem a clown .........plz............Ahh............you're no fun

 

[Move2CLT]

Unless...the Corporation and the bargaining agents are cooperatively willing to accept a measured risk/reward liability and assume the collective responsibility of testing the leagal definition of "fair and equitable.

There it is.

A DFR case with merit hanging over the company's head and the time frame it will take to make said test, the company is unwilling to go that route.

There will be no test and the company will use Silver as a backstop.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Frankly, personally I am not afraid of a threeway if it could be done in a fair and equitable manner. i.e. the West is given an autonomous status in which to promote its interest. However, I do not think usapa would roll over and take the chance of the beating that could come from a threeway, and I do not know how the West could be given that status legally, or how you go about ignoring an NMB representational election.

Further, if it is determined that usapa is incapable of representing West interests, and the West is granted autonomous standing, that is an admission that usapa has been violating its DFR owed the West for the last 4 years.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I would like to see a threeway.

I agree with you. Personally, I think there should be a exclusive election, with the blessing of USAPA, by the west pilots of a special committee of west pilots to represent west interests in a 3-way.

Let the arbitration panel do their thing, and then it is done. As Parker has pointed out, there is no recourse to a McCaskill-Bond mandated arbitration. Aside from that, I doubt there would be enough support to pursue anything even on the east side.