June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

Put the present paradigm in front of a 3 arbitator panel....

Assuming this merger does happen; that's my expectation for the future, for what little any person's opinion matters here.

 

[Pi brat]

The fence we proposed was on the table. You guys wanted nothing to do with it because you had you DOH blinders on. You disengaged from the talks and all offers came off the table.

Your east offer sucked. Guess who hit the street first in a furlough.

I wasn't there, were you? I heard that your offer really sucked and that your drew a line in the sand that prevented real negotiations.

 

[nic4us]

I wasn't there, were you? I heard that your offer really sucked and that your drew a line in the sand that prevented real negotiations.

I was not there either, but I got this straight from Ken Stravers West MC chairman.

The very first thing that was asked by the east was, "how many of our furloughed pilots are you guys willing to put in front of your F/Os?"

Seriously??? From the street to next in line for a captain seat and in front of our F/Os? Are you kidding me?

The West reply was how about ZERO. We are going to do this according to ALPA merger policy and the company's statement of labor principles, and the guidlines in the TA.

east reply....there is obviously just no negotiating with such unreasonable demands. We are seeking DOH and stapling the West.

And the rest as they say is history.

 

[nic4us]

Tiresome BS indeed, as if it's now the supposed "fault" of those at American that their pathetic excuse for management has placed the operation into BK? By that "logic" of course; all the APA people should become ready furlough-fodder for all those within this "thriving" entity?....No?....Sigh!...I honestly must wonder some times....Is it even POSSIBLE for any people to be so entirely bereft of even the slightest understanding of this world's workings? As for "that is unfair"?...What else could be expected from those who's published credo is "....somebody owes the West..."?

Each case turns on its own merits.

If you cannot understand the difference between the position the APA is in and where the east was standing in 2004, then there really is no way you will ever understand how and why things turned out the way they did, or more importantly, forcast what could happen in the future.

In regards to the "somebody owes the West" quote you took from my post....that somebody is usapa in particular, not a general statement of entitlement. I said that if we end up in a threeway integration because usapa is incapable of representing the West, which they truely are, then usapa who has extorted dues from the West for the past 4 years while failing its DFR owed, then indeed usapa owes the West. usapa being the association the east voted in to steal West seniority and/or force seperate ops to reap benefits from the merger they are not entitled to.

Another thing, you claim or imply the West has an immature "entitlement attitude" all the while whinning about why the Nic is unfair and why the east deserves all the benefits of the merger.

See how that actually makes you the self important whinner that thinks he is "entitled" regardless of your reasons for reneging on binding arbitration?

 

[EastUS1]

See how that actually makes you the self important whinner that thinks he is "entitled" regardless of your reasons for reneging on binding arbitration?

What wholesale, complete and utter BS. I'm not "whining" about anything, as the nic doesn't matter to me personally....got that? What DOES matter to me is even the ridiculous thought of placing anyone ahead of another with a gross disparity of years worked. You would cheerfully place a new hire ahead of some with over a decade and a half years worked. On my worst possible day as a human being, I couldn't have EVER said to anyone that had more years worked than myself in a given trade, that I should, by whatever arcane magic, be made "senior" to them. That's just plain ridiculous to me on ANY level...Period. That you've no problem whatsoever with not seeing, in my belief, a clearly obscene level of immature selfishness in any who'd do so, and instead, are even actively seeking to do so yourself...well...you figure it out. We'll never see at all eye to eye on this.

 

[cleardirect]

Wanna buy a bridge? This is a lawyers dream... continual litigation and arbitration.

Put the present paradigm in front of a 3 arbitator panel such as was used with Delta/Northwest and I will be happy to settle for whatever comes out of it.

Driver...

Throwing the BS flag on this statement.

This is what you all said when we went to arbitration the last time. But the outcome was not to your liking and we all know what happened next.

You all will forgive us if we don't believe a word you guy have to say about honoring your commitments. Go watch the crew news videos. Parker talking about how it is federal law this time and people can't go changing unions and avoid their agreements.

 

[Pi brat]

I was not there either, but I got this straight from Ken Stravers West MC chairman.

The very first thing that was asked by the east was, "how many of our furloughed pilots are you guys willing to put in front of your F/Os?"

Seriously??? From the street to next in line for a captain seat and in front of our F/Os? Are you kidding me?

The West reply was how about ZERO. We are going to do this according to ALPA merger policy and the company's statement of labor principles, and the guidlines in the TA.

east reply....there is obviously just no negotiating with such unreasonable demands. We are seeking DOH and stapling the West.

And the rest as they say is history.

I heard the same thing. But on the seriously part-we had guys with 16 year LOS, so seriouly, they should have been senior to the bottom AWA F/Os. Senior to, but with no bump no flush. Our merger committee had a plan that wouldn't have been as bad as DOH for you guys, but after that line in the sand they didn't think they could risk throwing out there. They could not abandon the long LOS furloughed pilots. So here we are, and you are correct the rest is history so let's move on.

 

[nic4us]

Wanna buy a bridge? This is a lawyers dream... continual litigation and arbitration.

Put the present paradigm in front of a 3 arbitator panel such as was used with Delta/Northwest and I will be happy to settle for whatever comes out of it.

Driver...

Says the guy with a history of reneging on a binding arbitration.

You even say in your post that it will be continual litigation,,,a lawyers dream,,,

There will be nothing for you to "settle for whatever comes out of it". Your choices will be live with it or leave.

BTW Driver, I bet the east will argue that their positions they have attained since the LCC merger are evidence of why they should gain in relation to the Nic. That will play right into the what should be the West's strategy.

 

[EastUS1]

You all will forgive us if we don't believe a word you guy have to say about honoring your commitments.

As you'll perhaps be equally forgiving of the fact that there's no possible way I could care any less what your notions are there 😉

 

[EastUS1]

....the rest is history so let's move on.

A very reasonable thought, since nothing said here will effect anything, and it's a beautiful out. Have a good one yourself today.

 

[EastUS1]

...and it's a beautiful day out, was the intended statement. Have a good one yourself today.

 

[cleardirect]

What wholesale, complete and utter BS. I'm not "whining" about anything, as the nic doesn't matter to me personally....got that? What DOES matter to me is even the ridiculous thought of placing anyone ahead of another with a gross disparity of years worked. You would cheerfully place a new hire ahead of some with over a decade and a half years worked. On my worst possible day as a human being, I couldn't have EVER said to anyone that had more years worked than myself in a given trade, that I should, by whatever arcane magic, be made "senior" to them. That's just plain ridiculous to me on ANY level...Period. That you've no problem whatsoever with not seeing, in my belief, a clearly obscene level of immature selfishness in any who'd do so, and instead, are even actively seeking to do so yourself...well...you figure it out. We'll never see at all eye to eye on this.

It was the arbitrator that placed people where they are on the list. Not just this arbitrator but many different arbitrators have done exactly the same thing. You can whine and complain all day long but in the end arbitrators look at all of the facts and come up with a reasonable list not one designed by someone with something to gain or using a single criteria.

The only thing you ever talk about or use as an example is how long you have worked. You are singular minded and can't see beyond your own entitlement of what you think you deserve.

ALPA merger policy and A/M does not use a single issue to decide seniority. We are pilots not any other class or craft of employee. So if you guys would let go of the single issue mentality we can get beyond this. Otherwise you are going to be disappointed again in the next merger. LCC/ARM will not be DOH for the pilots. It does not matter if it is a one man, three man or 9 man panel.

 

[cleardirect]

As you'll perhaps be equally forgiving of the fact that there's no possible way I could care any less what your notions are there 😉

You are right the only thing that matters is what judge Silver says and after that what the arbitrator says.

 

[EastUS1]

You can whine and complain all day long but ....

From the post you're supposedly responding to: "What wholesale, complete and utter BS. I'm not "whining" about anything, as the nic doesn't matter to me personally....got that?"

It's nothing less than astonishing that anyone with your "attention to detail" could have missed this....Sigh!...or perhaps not 😉

 

[nic4us]

I heard the same thing. But on the seriously part-we had guys with 16 year LOS, so seriouly, they should have been senior to the bottom AWA F/Os. Senior to, but with no bump no flush. Our merger committee had a plan that wouldn't have been as bad as DOH for you guys, but after that line in the sand they didn't think they could risk throwing out there. They could not abandon the long LOS furloughed pilots. So here we are, and you are correct the rest is history so let's move on.

Why should your guy with 16 years LOS go ahead of the West pilot who had 14 years LOS at AAA and another 3 years LOS at AWA, or the one with 15 years at AAA and 6 months at AWA, or the one who quit AAA after 17 years uninterupted service to go to work for AWA?

You made your arguements in front of the arbitrator, we made ours. The result was a "fair and equitable" distribution by any measure. Your MC did not abandon anyone, neither did the West's.

I agree..."lets move on"....but we move on with the Nic, and that is non-negotiable.