NO Deal for APFA

[NYer]

That's what I thought. It would be a dream come true for US (cough) AWA management to have your contracts thrown out and still get to merge with AA.

I think that this scenario is very much likely. Once they take stuff away from you, US is gonna make (hell) sure that you don't get it back.

I always wondered why the American or the Creditors wouldn't wait until AFTER the contracts are settled before they pursue another deal. The whole argument trying to get the court to hold off on the union hearings and wait until something happens with USAir, seemed like a "pie in the sky" theory.

 

[NYer]

The APFA requested binding arbitration and AA declined...... thats why smarty!


This is from the March 14, 2012 hotline:


Last week APFA as well as TWU and APA requested binding arbitration from the NMB. On Monday the NMB sent a letter to AA requesting comments regarding the request. The company has until 4:00 pm ET on March 19 to provide comments.

The NBM can't make that decision unless the parties were released, which they wouldn't do. That was another F/A Hail Mary.

 

[Barfbag]

That's right who would have known, APFA more balls than TWU.

 

[texasreb]

I have a friend in the Teamsters, and he said the workers agreed to the Hostess Ask, but the hold up is the multi-employer pension which is a separate agreement with the Teamsters and something that an investor will have to deal with regardless. The Judge knows a strike would liquidate Hostess, but the Teamsters have an understanding with a company called Bimbo who would come in and take over after the fact buy the assets so the workers are covered one way or another. (The Teamsters represent some workers at Bimbo). He said that situation has nothing to do with the actual contract and the Judge is buying time to have an investor step in rather than liquidate.

Great. Bimbo is a Mexican company. Here goes more American jobs. Another feather for the unions.

 

[jersey777]

The NBM can't make that decision unless the parties were released, which they wouldn't do. That was another F/A Hail Mary.

In regular negotiations that is true.......and the APFA wanted to be released for nearly a year before AA declared BK. In the recent situation, the NMB was still moderating negotiations and since the company was in bankruptcy, the NMB listened to the requests by the unions to submit the parties to binding arbitration and submitted that request to AA. AA declined because we all know that the term sheet they want to impose has been their plan for years. Too bad for them that their plan has backfired.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Totally unsurprising. Why "deal" with an outgoing management team. I would rather have the judge cram the term sheet down our throats then to work with TOHO and company. If we have to live under the term sheet for a few months then so be it. Our future lies with a merger with USair and their management team.

You are certainly putting all your eggs in the US Airways basket.

What's so glorious about Doug Parker and his merry band of managers? If you think US is free of labor strife, think again. They still operate as two airlines for the post part, and their flight attendants voted to reject a contract recently.

US is not exactly a house of management-labor harmony.

 

[jimntx]

Who said they were? Not anyone on here. But, it's hard to see how it could be any worse than the current lying, unprincipled, totally lacking in ethical thought "management" that we have now. I was lied to by a member of management just the other day. He knew he was lying. I knew he was lying. And, he knew that I knew. But, he didn't care. He had no intention of telling me the truth, because that would require admitting that the "cornerstone" strategy has been a failure in the almost 3 years it has been in place. But our "reorganization plan" is to do more of the same. I was always taught that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the first sign of insanity.

The only difference is that coming out of bankruptcy, the executives will all get nice bonusses for "saving" the company, no doubt. (Assuming of course that the judge doesn't figure out that the reorg plan is nothing more than warmed over cornerstone strategy and converts the proceedings to Ch. 7 to put us out of our misery.)

 

[nbmcg01]

Back in 2010 AA was willing to agree to binding arbitration and APFA wasn't. At the time, I thought their unwillingness was revealing, as if the APFA was so sure management was the one being unreasonable. Fast forward two years and you have APFA wanting binding arbitration. It's just like Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, whenever Israel offers something Palestinians want more, quickly realize they wont get what they are seeking and want the last best offer only to find its no longer on the table.

APFA is in a position to make major concessions, not gains. Can't believe they thought AA would consider a $75k early out incentive plus travel benefits when AA can impose unpleasant changes that will cause many, especially senior FAs to leave on their own will.

Josh

Josh, the wish to abrogate 60 years of collective bargaining does not constitute bargaining in good faith. I would guess that if the current concessionary agreements are abrogated the end of AA will quickly follow. No one will come to work. The current agreement (at least for the f/as) was way undervalued as to the cost of savings. Cost of a contractual item is determined at the time it is negotiated. Its value can only increase. (except in the eyes of AA) This is a labor-management cluster fluff of magnanimous proportions. I feel very sorry for the line employee who will ultimately suffer from these games.

 

[jersey777]

Back in 2010 AA was willing to agree to binding arbitration and APFA wasn't. At the time, I thought their unwillingness was revealing, as if the APFA was so sure management was the one being unreasonable. Fast forward two years and you have APFA wanting binding arbitration. It's just like Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, whenever Israel offers something Palestinians want more, quickly realize they wont get what they are seeking and want the last best offer only to find its no longer on the table.

APFA is in a position to make major concessions, not gains. Can't believe they thought AA would consider a $75k early out incentive plus travel benefits when AA can impose unpleasant changes that will cause many, especially senior FAs to leave on their own will.

Josh

That is simply not true. You are very ignorant of the facts. Binding arbitration was never a consideration by either party at that time. Do you just make this stuff up?

As far as the early out, you are wrong again. Did you make up the $75k figure too. The APFA never mentioned that figure. Do us a favor, do some research before posting.

 

[737823]

That is simply not true. You are very ignorant of the facts. Binding arbitration was never a consideration by either party at that time. Do you just make this stuff up?

For the Record, April 12, 2010:

But if the NMB decides that we can’t make any more progress in mediation, we would support a recommendation of binding arbitration. It would be the next best thing to a mediated settlement and provides an opportunity to have neutral third parties give all parties a reasonable deal.

http://www.aanegotia...orTheRecord.asp

APFA Hotline, April 9, 2010:

The closing statement of American’s response to the NMB exposes management’s true intent as Burdette concludes the letter by suggesting arbitration as a possible end result of our negotiations. Clearly management is positioning itself for a third party to decide our fate. This is why APFA members must take control of the process, exactly as intended in the very policies of the Railway Labor Act that American’s team aims to circumvent. We must show that we are not willing to sit by and let the company’s inaction win out.

http://www.apfa.org/.../view/1886/884/

APFA Hotline, May 24, 2010:

The APFA's opinion is that we are at an impasse. And we have no intention of accepting the proffer of binding arbitration.

http://www.apfa.org/.../view/1909/887/

As far as the early out, you are wrong again. Did you make up the $75k figure too. The APFA never mentioned that figure. Do us a favor, do some research before posting.

APFA actually wanted one years salary as a severance (among other things), some of the senior FAs working long haul international probably bring in north of $75k per year.

http://www.apfa.org/...eet_15feb12.pdf
http://blogs.star-te...ve-payment.html
http://blogs.star-te...o-american.html

My apologies, I confused the TWU's request for upto $75k to APFAs but they are equally outrageous and unreasonable.

Gotta love how the APFA consulted Jeffries Group, an investment bank for how much you guys have deep disdain for banking and financial services industry, they are laughing their way to the bank (literally!) with the fees they collected from APFA.

http://www.apfa.org/...es_overview.pdf



Who here is making things up and ignorant to the facts? I provided links to news articles and official APFA correspondence and acknowledged my confusion between the APFA and TWU proposals, yet afterall APFA still had an equally outrageous proposal.

Josh

 

[737823]

Josh, the wish to abrogate 60 years of collective bargaining does not constitute bargaining in good faith. I would guess that if the current concessionary agreements are abrogated the end of AA will quickly follow. No one will come to work. The current agreement (at least for the f/as) was way undervalued as to the cost of savings. Cost of a contractual item is determined at the time it is negotiated. Its value can only increase. (except in the eyes of AA) This is a labor-management cluster fluff of magnanimous proportions. I feel very sorry for the line employee who will ultimately suffer from these games.

I think you're mistaken if you believe AA "wishes" to abrograte union agreements. No one enjoys this process-customers, employees (management and non-management alike), suppliers, etc. Abrogration is only an intermediate step in the process, AA's unions had nearly five years proceeding the BK to devise consensual contracts and elected not to do so. Clearly labor and management have a dysfunctional relationship here, but is it any different than other carriers like UA and USAir? Sure carriers like DL and WN may have better overall relationships but those ar e the exception.

Josh

 

[jersey777]

I stand corrected. It was speculated upon but was never actually proffered. Since I did not go back and read EVERY single hotline I did not remember binding arbitration as being seriously considered.....and that is because it wasn't and the hotlines all were responding to what "could" happen.

It really doesn't matter anyway. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that even if we HAD an arbitrator decide our future that American Airlines would still have declared bankruptcy and would still have imposed the term sheet. And you know why? Because they have a failed business plan that has not changed and almost every single analyst agrees.

For the Record, April 12, 2010:


http://www.aanegotia...orTheRecord.asp

APFA Hotline, April 9, 2010:


http://www.apfa.org/.../view/1886/884/

APFA Hotline, May 24, 2010:


http://www.apfa.org/.../view/1909/887/




APFA actually wanted one years salary as a severance (among other things), some of the senior FAs working long haul international probably bring in north of $75k per year.

http://www.apfa.org/...eet_15feb12.pdf
http://blogs.star-te...ve-payment.html
http://blogs.star-te...o-american.html

My apologies, I confused the TWU's request for upto $75k to APFAs but they are equally outrageous and unreasonable.

Gotta love how the APFA consulted Jeffries Group, an investment bank for how much you guys have deep disdain for banking and financial services industry, they are laughing their way to the bank (literally!) with the fees they collected from APFA.

http://www.apfa.org/...es_overview.pdf



Who here is making things up and ignorant to the facts? I provided links to news articles and official APFA correspondence and acknowledged my confusion between the APFA and TWU proposals, yet afterall APFA still had an equally outrageous proposal.

Josh

I stand corrected. It was speculated upon but was never actually proffered. Since I did not go back and read EVERY single hotline I did not remember binding arbitration as being seriously considered.....and that is because it wasn't and the hotlines all were responding to what "could" happen.

It really doesn't matter anyway. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that even if we HAD an arbitrator decide our future that American Airlines would still have declared bankruptcy and would still have imposed the term sheet. And you know why? Because they have a failed business plan that has not changed and almost every single analyst agrees.

 

[enough already]

I find it odd, but not surpising that the Tulsa World (local newspaper in AA's pocket) has not reported anything whatsoever about the APFA's mediated talks ended without fruition.

Just sayin...

 

[eolesen]

All this talk about binding arbitration..... Binding isn't always binding.

Case and point: the Nicolau Award. If you don't know what that award is, you're an idiot for putting your trust in the binding arbitration process.

 

[Buck]

Your knowledgeable opinion on the Nicolau Award:

In the event of a merger between US and AA, will the Nicolau Award be used in seniority integration?

I believe I know the answer to my second Q: can Kasher be resurrected?