OCT/NOV 2012 IAM Fleet Service Discussions

[Jester]

The attendance policy is just that... a company policy. Similar to the employee handbook of conduct and ethics. Unfortunately, contract negotiations cannot encompass all. You are right that many employees have lost their employment due to the attendance policy, however, many have been terminated due to "serious misdemeanors", drug and alcohal test results, fighting, harrassment, etc. that all fall under company policy. IMO... if you were to total them all they would not exceed the jobs lost to outsourcing Fleet Service work (a contractual issue) . Both the former and current teams you mention are aware company policies and contractual language are two different entities. Both, cannot and will never be, encompassed into one CBA. If that is the expectation... there is no leadership team within any union that will fullfill that dream.
I'm willing to bet Jester we have lost more jobs to outsourcing (language covered under the CBA) than to the company's policies.
For the betterment of the membership... it's time to get away from the finger pointing and move forward with realistic expectations. IMO... There is so much to fix and make right. Let's get started. Let's choose our battles wisely and fix what we can.
ograc

Respectfully, this is why I thought you were a poor candidate, as I said so a few months ago... you would be willing to give-up before even trying. During discussions, everything is up for negotiations, and to say simply, "Company Policy," well, why not just have a "Company Policy" to determine wages, insurance, seniority, and various other job related issues? Look at the FAs who negotiated something important to them on flying stand-by which was in conflict to "Company Policy"... are you telling me that the Attendance Policy we have is the same policy that the pilots, FAs, and office people are using?

Yes, I would be curious and to how many jobs were lost during outsourcing since the Attendance Policy has been in place. It wouldn't surprise me if 500 FSAs having lost their jobs due to the Attendance Policy, as PHX has lost easily a hundred over the years. I doubt the IAM knows or cares... so long as the dues keep coming-in from a new employee or old employee, the money just spends all the same.

 

[pjirish317]

Respectfully, this is why I thought you were a poor candidate, as I said so a few months ago... you would be willing to give-up before even trying. During discussions, everything is up for negotiations, and to say simply, "Company Policy," well, why not just have a "Company Policy" to determine wages, insurance, seniority, and various other job related issues? Look at the FAs who negotiated something important to them on flying stand-by which was in conflict to "Company Policy"... are you telling me that the Attendance Policy we have is the same policy that the pilots, FAs, and office people are using?

Yes, I would be curious and to how many jobs were lost during outsourcing since the Attendance Policy has been in place. It wouldn't surprise me if 500 FSAs having lost their jobs due to the Attendance Policy, as PHX has lost easily a hundred over the years. I doubt the IAM knows or cares... so long as the dues keep coming-in from a new employee or old employee, the money just spends all the same.

Jester,

Call Guiness, you and I agree on something, Hell hath frozen over...lol. I agree that it would be possible to incorperate an attendance policy into our CBA, however, that policy would have to have rewards as well as punishments, and take into account a Physician's note for occurances. Anything short of this would be detremental to the group, IMO of course. If you look at Southwest's attendance policy, you can get points removed for perfect attendance for a period of time, points drop off quicker, and you can even go into the negative. If this company were to adopt a policy similar to that at southwest, we may be in the ballpark. As far as the attendance policy the same for everyone, sadly, this is not the case. Reservations has subtle differences, and I'm sure that management, and admin's policy is different also, although I can't say 100%, as well with the pilots, and FA's. And just FYI, new-hires do not pay dues until probation is completed.

 

[ograc]

Respectfully, this is why I thought you were a poor candidate, as I said so a few months ago... you would be willing to give-up before even trying. During discussions, everything is up for negotiations, and to say simply, "Company Policy," well, why not just have a "Company Policy" to determine wages, insurance, seniority, and various other job related issues? Look at the FAs who negotiated something important to them on flying stand-by which was in conflict to "Company Policy"... are you telling me that the Attendance Policy we have is the same policy that the pilots, FAs, and office people are using?

Yes, I would be curious and to how many jobs were lost during outsourcing since the Attendance Policy has been in place. It wouldn't surprise me if 500 FSAs having lost their jobs due to the Attendance Policy, as PHX has lost easily a hundred over the years. I doubt the IAM knows or cares... so long as the dues keep coming-in from a new employee or old employee, the money just spends all the same.

Merely suggesting jester we must choose our battles. Does the NC put more emphasis on improvements in Wage, benefit, pension, seniority and scope protection? Or are they to focus on attendance policy? I do not endorse the current policy... but, as I have said before, the NC is charged with prioritiizing what needs to be addressed for the betterment of the entire membership. IMO... with so many issues needing addressed an improved attendance policy is not as critical. The concessions we have taken through 2 bankruptcies and one Transition Agreement will take multiple contracts to regain. You may interpret this as giving up on an issue and I was a poor candidate if you wish... but may I ask, of the fore mentioned issues, which would you be willing to give concessions to in order to improve the attendance policy? It's give and take in negotiations. The company would love to write a more accommodating attendance policy for concessions on wage, benefits, pension, and seniority and scope language. Wheather you want to believe it or not... this is the reality of what any NC is up against. If I were to bet... we have lost far more jobs to outsourcing than the attendance policy.
ograc

 

[john john]

IAM mechanics and related at US won a major arbitration decision on attendance. Being able to use sick leave and categorizing it as a benefit for employees to use for cause. I can be done to the employee benefit

 

[ograc]

Jester,

Call Guiness, you and I agree on something, Hell hath frozen over...lol. I agree that it would be possible to incorperate an attendance policy into our CBA, however, that policy would have to have rewards as well as punishments, and take into account a Physician's note for occurances. Anything short of this would be detremental to the group, IMO of course. If you look at Southwest's attendance policy, you can get points removed for perfect attendance for a period of time, points drop off quicker, and you can even go into the negative. If this company were to adopt a policy similar to that at southwest, we may be in the ballpark. As far as the attendance policy the same for everyone, sadly, this is not the case. Reservations has subtle differences, and I'm sure that management, and admin's policy is different also, although I can't say 100%, as well with the pilots, and FA's. And just FYI, new-hires do not pay dues until probation is completed.

Incorporate a better attendance policy into the negotiations of the CBA? I agree the attendance policy sucks... but what are we willing to concede in order to get this accomplished? Improvements in wage, benefits, pension, scope language, seniority protection etc.? Awhile back the District called for contract proposals from the members. To my knowledge the results of this call for proposals were never released. I would be curious if improvements in the attendance policy made the top five. If it did then the NC should aggresively pursue this issue in negotiations. If the issue did not, then the issue holds less credance. Either way... the NC should negotiate accordingly. Does anyone know what the results were of the call for contract proposals other than the District?

 

[blue collar]

Incorporate a better attendance policy into the negotiations of the CBA? I agree the attendance policy sucks... but what are we willing to concede in order to get this accomplished? Improvements in wage, benefits, pension, scope language, seniority protection etc.? Awhile back the District called for contract proposals from the members. To my knowledge the results of this call for proposals were never released. I would be curious if improvements in the attendance policy made the top five. If it did then the NC should aggresively pursue this issue in negotiations. If the issue did not, then the issue holds less credance. Either way... the NC should negotiate accordingly. Does anyone know what the results were of the call for contract proposals other than the District?

Having an attendance policy in the CBA would be an improvement to benefits, because that's what sick time is. So, it apparently makes your top 5.

 

[ograc]

Having an attendance policy in the CBA would be an improvement to benefits, because that's what sick time is. So, it apparently makes your top 5.

An improved attendance policy in the CBA would certainly be an improvement. My question is... based on the contract proposals submitted by the membership was there a majority seeking improvements to the attendance policy? Has the Disrict shared this information with the members? It's not my top five... it is the member's top five. When I speak of benefits I am referring to Medical and Dental benefits. IMO... an issue that has much more importance. I am willing, however, to support the issues the membership deemed most important in contract negotiations. Unfortunately, that information has not been disclosed to my knowledge.
ograc

 

[blue collar]

You say outsourcing is a big thing (which I agree with) because of the amount of people who have lost jobs/relocated. I'm sure the number of people who have lost jobs since the attendance policy was instituted is comparable to the amount who have been outsourced since the TA was passed in 08. If I were in your guys shoes, the attendance policy would be up there with scope, and wages.

 

[Jester]

You say outsourcing is a big thing (which I agree with) because of the amount of people who have lost jobs/relocated. I'm sure the number of people who have lost jobs since the attendance policy was instituted is comparable to the amount who have been outsourced since the TA was passed in 08. If I were in your guys shoes, the attendance policy would be up there with scope, and wages.

That's exactly my point... sure, if we want to go back 20 years and compare job losses with outsourcing versus the Attendance Policy, then probably the outsourcing job losses would be much larger, but if we go back to 2008, can we say the same thing? I have my doubts. Keep in my that some stations have been downsized, in particular, LAS which would not considered to be outsourced, while others (SNA and BUF) have been clearly outsourced.

And you are absolutely right... sick pay is a benefit and if we are unable to use it because we risk going up to another level, then I question if it is really a usable benefit for many. If what ograc says is true about the NC, then I am dismayed in their inablitity to see this as an important issue. Funny how people will say, "Without scope, then wages mean little," but failing to accept the obvious corollary, "Without a job, then wages mean little (and either does scope)."

 

[Ramp Rogue]

Jester,

A problem that I find with the attendance policy, is that those that don't call in sick are punished for not calling in sick. There are many employees that no longer accrue sick days because they are at the maximum amount in sick days. But you have john & jane doe that call in sick in order to continue to accrue sick days.

Also sick days should be used for FMLA, instead of taking vacation days for it. If you take all of your vacation early in the year, then use FMLA later in the year they will ask you to pay that money back if you don't have any vacation days left. Or they will deduct it from your paycheck if you don't freely pay it back.

If you call in sick, and come back to work with a doctor's note, you still get points against you. What's the use of paying the doctor a copay if you are going to gets points anyway? May as well save that copay money.

Rogue.....

 

[blue collar]

As far as I know you can use sk for fmla, it doesn't need to be vacation time. Having a sick cap isn't as big of an issue to me- as long as it is big enough, like 1600-2000 hours.
As far as your points system- I agree. No sense in going to get a doctors note if you're still going to have points against you.

 

[ograc]

That's exactly my point... sure, if we want to go back 20 years and compare job losses with outsourcing versus the Attendance Policy, then probably the outsourcing job losses would be much larger, but if we go back to 2008, can we say the same thing? I have my doubts. Keep in my that some stations have been downsized, in particular, LAS which would not considered to be outsourced, while others (SNA and BUF) have been clearly outsourced.

And you are absolutely right... sick pay is a benefit and if we are unable to use it because we risk going up to another level, then I question if it is really a usable benefit for many. If what ograc says is true about the NC, then I am dismayed in their inablitity to see this as an important issue. Funny how people will say, "Without scope, then wages mean little," but failing to accept the obvious corollary, "Without a job, then wages mean little (and either does scope)."

Jester,
At this point sick pay is not a benefit. It remains governed by company policy. I'm certainly not endorsing this injustice... just trying to get an assesment of the membership's opinion on how important this issue is pertaining to contract negotiations. Has the District released results of the call for contract proposals? Without this information we are left to speculate on the credence the membership assigns to improvements in the attendance policy. If, based on the results of contract proposals, the majority of the membership see this issue as one that needs addressed (strike vote issue) then I fully support it. Speaking for myself... I have not been privy to the results of the call for contract proposals. With that being said... no one knows with certainty how important this issue is in contract negotiations.

 

[ograc]

That's exactly my point... sure, if we want to go back 20 years and compare job losses with outsourcing versus the Attendance Policy, then probably the outsourcing job losses would be much larger, but if we go back to 2008, can we say the same thing? I have my doubts. Keep in my that some stations have been downsized, in particular, LAS which would not considered to be outsourced, while others (SNA and BUF) have been clearly outsourced.

And you are absolutely right... sick pay is a benefit and if we are unable to use it because we risk going up to another level, then I question if it is really a usable benefit for many. If what ograc says is true about the NC, then I am dismayed in their inablitity to see this as an important issue. Funny how people will say, "Without scope, then wages mean little," but failing to accept the obvious corollary, "Without a job, then wages mean little (and either does scope)."

jester,
Downsizing or outsourcing stations ultimately have the same adverse impact on our fellow members. Members forced to relocate their families, commute, or accept furlough are terrible hardships endured by your fellow members. If you are in fact stationed in PHX... I understand your lack of empathy regarding this issue. I too, was once working in PIT. A station whose members believed they would always be protected. Be very careful with your dismissive opinion regarding the importance of this of this issue. PHX could very well be the next PIT if a merger with AA comes forth. Then the attendance policy will pale in comparison to seniority and scope language. IMO... our group needs to focus on the projected long term. When the corporate heads are talking "synergies" their not talking about job elimination through attendance policies. They're talking station closings and outsourcing. I agree the attendance policy needs to be addressed and improved. IMO... given today's industry environment, there are issues that have more urgency than an attendance policy. Secure the represented jobs! That's what the companies are after!
ograc

 

[necigrad]

The District will not release the results of the survey. Agree or disagree, that is my understanding.

Regarding sick pay, and not the attendance policy, there are a lot of issues. I understand the company wanting to control absenteeism, and I've ZERO doubt there are those that abuse it. The problem is there is no INCENTIVE to not use it, only disincentive. People don't use sick pay because they get points or only 50% of the days pay. This forces people to come in sick. I've done it, and I'll do it again. This in turn makes others sick, and odds are that's a few sick calls there. Even if I get no one sick, I work like #### and don't get anywheres near the performance that I do when I'm well. Because I'm working I'm also sick longer.

Let me call in sick without penalty and I'll use it. This is where the company will say "But that's abuse!!!" It is if I misuse it, but the statement makes the assumption that I am in fact not using it legitimatly. That's an easy fix. Pay me at a REASONABLE rate when I leave for my bank. This $9.00/hour banked or whatever is a joke. Pay me 100%, hell, pay me 75% and I'll HAPPILY save my bank and take the payout. Even better, because I'm calling in when I'm sick, and workign when I'm not, the company will have fewer shifts to fill with OT.

Pay 100% for sick calls and people will call in sick when it's necessary. Give me a reasonable portion for unused days and I'll guarantee there's a lot of unused days. Better for me. Better for you. Better for the company.

 

[ograc]

The District will not release the results of the survey. Agree or disagree, that is my understanding.

Regarding sick pay, and not the attendance policy, there are a lot of issues. I understand the company wanting to control absenteeism, and I've ZERO doubt there are those that abuse it. The problem is there is no INCENTIVE to not use it, only disincentive. People don't use sick pay because they get points or only 50% of the days pay. This forces people to come in sick. I've done it, and I'll do it again. This in turn makes others sick, and odds are that's a few sick calls there. Even if I get no one sick, I work like #### and don't get anywheres near the performance that I do when I'm well. Because I'm working I'm also sick longer.

Let me call in sick without penalty and I'll use it. This is where the company will say "But that's abuse!!!" It is if I misuse it, but the statement makes the assumption that I am in fact not using it legitimatly. That's an easy fix. Pay me at a REASONABLE rate when I leave for my bank. This $9.00/hour banked or whatever is a joke. Pay me 100%, hell, pay me 75% and I'll HAPPILY save my bank and take the payout. Even better, because I'm calling in when I'm sick, and workign when I'm not, the company will have fewer shifts to fill with OT.

Pay 100% for sick calls and people will call in sick when it's necessary. Give me a reasonable portion for unused days and I'll guarantee there's a lot of unused days. Better for me. Better for you. Better for the company.

As i have said there is plenty of room for improvement in the existing policy.Your point makes perfect sense to me. Unfortunately, the company doesn't buy it. Your proposal has been put on the table before by past negotiating committees. The way the company sees it... they are not obligated to offer incentives for you to not use your sick time. They reluctantly agreed to pay $9.00/hour for unused time at seperation. Up until then they paid nothing for unused time. They truly believe they're being generous on this issue.