OCT/NOV 2012 IAM Fleet Service Discussions

[ograc]

well then , that's pretty imporant .... i tend to think of DOH as being the most fairest way to do things ..

freedom,
I believe recognizing Fleet Service classification seniority when "dovetailing" a Fleet Service seniority roster represents the fairest way. Why should a Fleet Service member, who decides to take a management position, completely outside of the Fleet Classification, who then returns to the Fleet classification be given consideration and subsequent seniority accrual in a classification he or she chose to leave? IMO... Fairest Fleet seniority integration = Fleet Service classification seniority date.
ograc

 

[blue collar]

freedom,
I believe recognizing Fleet Service classification seniority when "dovetailing" a Fleet Service seniority roster represents the fairest way. Why should a Fleet Service member, who decides to take a management position, completely outside of the Fleet Classification, who then returns to the Fleet classification be given consideration and subsequent seniority accrual in a classification he or she chose to leave? IMO... Fairest Fleet seniority integration = Fleet Service classification seniority date.
ograc

Don't they forfeit their seniority after 90 days of being in management? I didn't fall under your CBA, but I thought that was pretty standard...

 

[ograc]

Don't they forfeit their seniority after 90 days of being in management? I didn't fall under your CBA, but I thought that was pretty standard...

"Managers in positions within the Customer Service group higher than shift manager shall forfeit all previous Fleet Service Classification and Pay Date Seniority." Article 7, Sec. G of the CBA. Shift Managers can return to the Fleet Sevice classification retaining any previously accrued Fleet Service classification seniority. They do not accrue Fleet Service classification seniority while in their management position. IMO... as it should be.
ograc

 

[ograc]

Do you not have both? DOH for travel, vacation/sick/OJI accrual, service credit, etc. & Classification for shift & vacation bidding?

We do in fact have both. The question is when integrating the seniority roster of a combined carrier which date should be used to establish the fairest seniority integration of the Fleet Service classification? IMO...If you use DOH you are crediting seniority either outside of the Fleet Service classification or full time seniority for time employeed (in many cases years) as a part time employee. DOH or Classification seniority integration... take your pick. Either is more fair than what the TWU has to offer regarding seniority integration. The acquiring carrier's members are given preferential treatment with seniority integration? please... I don't buy into that senario as being fair to all. Let us not forget we are just pawns in this chess game. IMO... in our position we have nothing to do with merger or acquisition decisions. That is left to the suits and ties. We are all, just brown baggin, blue collar workers. None of us should be given an advantage over another based on what the suit and ties decide is best for the shareholders. Am I missing something Sisters and Brothers?
ograc

 

[pjirish317]

If I'm not mistaking classification dates were established in order to reflect seniority accrual as a part time agent. Most of us were hired on as part time agents, therefore, an adjusted classification date was established when upgraded to full time. You did not accrue full time seniority as a part time agent. These two different dates (classification & DOH) were established years ago. Additionally, classification seniority reflects the time you have worked in the Fleet Service classification. You do not accrue classification seniority if you choose to work Customer Service or take a management position and then decide to return to the Fleet Service classification. I believe Fleet Service seniority lists were integrated by classification seniority. They were certainly not integrated by giving advantage to the employees of the acquiring airline... which seems to be the TWU's idea of "fair" seniority integration.

So according to you, US Fleet who were P/T prior to 1996, (I think this is when the "classification" seniority went into affect), have no business having a D.O.H. for seniority, while America West Fleet went D.O.H. for all? So, for expamle, a US Fleet employee hired in 1990, P/T, and never left the group, upgraded to F/T in say 2000, was adjusted by 3 years, give or take a few months, when the "classification date seniority" went into affect, to give him a seniority date of 1993. An America West employee, hired in, say 1992, P/T, never left the group, upgraded to F/T in 2000, would still have the 1992 seniority date. If D.O.H. is regarded as time you entered into the class or craft, until you left, then the US fleet employee should be senior. You misrepresent the facts when you say the the I.A.M. does seniority intergration by D.O.H. now dont you. It should either be straight D.O.H.,(entrance into the class or craft, regardless of P/T or F/T status) or "classification", not one for one group, and the other for the other group. I may be all alone in my way of thinking here, but it is just the way I see it.

 

[ograc]

So according to you, US Fleet who were P/T prior to 1996, (I think this is when the "classification" seniority went into affect), have no business having a D.O.H. for seniority, while America West Fleet went D.O.H. for all? So, for expamle, a US Fleet employee hired in 1990, P/T, and never left the group, upgraded to F/T in say 2000, was adjusted by 3 years, give or take a few months, when the "classification date seniority" went into affect, to give him a seniority date of 1993. An America West employee, hired in, say 1992, P/T, never left the group, upgraded to F/T in 2000, would still have the 1992 seniority date. If D.O.H. is regarded as time you entered into the class or craft, until you left, then the US fleet employee should be senior. You misrepresent the facts when you say the the I.A.M. does seniority intergration by D.O.H. now dont you. It should either be straight D.O.H.,(entrance into the class or craft, regardless of P/T or F/T status) or "classification", not one for one group, and the other for the other group. I may be all alone in my way of thinking here, but it is just the way I see it.

Pj,
I was hired as a part time agent in 79. when I was upgraded to full time in 80 I was given a seniority clasification date. Classification seniority has been in effect long before 1996. Either way... wheather seniority integration is done by DOH or Classification, wouldn't you agree either represent a fairer integration than giving an advantage to the employees of the acquiring carrier when integrating a seniority roster for the Fleet Service?

 

[Ramp Rogue]

So according to you, US Fleet who were P/T prior to 1996, (I think this is when the "classification" seniority went into affect), have no business having a D.O.H. for seniority, while America West Fleet went D.O.H. for all? So, for expamle, a US Fleet employee hired in 1990, P/T, and never left the group, upgraded to F/T in say 2000, was adjusted by 3 years, give or take a few months, when the "classification date seniority" went into affect, to give him a seniority date of 1993. An America West employee, hired in, say 1992, P/T, never left the group, upgraded to F/T in 2000, would still have the 1992 seniority date. If D.O.H. is regarded as time you entered into the class or craft, until you left, then the US fleet employee should be senior. You misrepresent the facts when you say the the I.A.M. does seniority intergration by D.O.H. now dont you. It should either be straight D.O.H.,(entrance into the class or craft, regardless of P/T or F/T status) or "classification", not one for one group, and the other for the other group. I may be all alone in my way of thinking here, but it is just the way I see it.

You are absolutely correct. It should be DOH for all. The playing field should be leveled to give everyone a fair seniority date. PT or FT it doesn't matter. The date you start is the date you start. That date should not be taken away from some, while others go untouched. Until the iam understands that, there will always be animosity among fleet service. Wake up iam and get this straightened out once and for all.

Rogue.....

 

[Ramp Rogue]

Pj,
I was hired as a part time agent in 79. when I was upgraded to full time in 80 I was given a seniority clasification date. Classification seniority has been in effect long before 1996. Either way... wheather seniority integration is done by DOH or Classification, wouldn't you agree either represent a fairer integration than giving an advantage to the employees of the acquiring carrier when integrating a seniority roster for the Fleet Service?

If that is true, then you should understand because you lost time also. There is only one fair way and that is DOH. Nothing else will do.

Rogue.....

 

[DFWFSC]

The current AA FSC contract went into affect 9-12-12, and we wont see the contract language in writing for awhile. Under this new contract, any station with under 15 mainline flights daily will get outsourced. Some cities like SAN,SEA and PHX have more flights but are seasonal and dont qualify. Im not 100% certain, but it's my understanding that to get any outsourced or any new station staffed or re-staffed there has to be at least 25 mainline flights daily to do so. The odds of AA ever going to 25+ mainline flights in any spoke city are very slim at best even with a merger. At AA all FSC's use DOH whether FT or PT. If you bump to the ramp from another classification you will have two seniority dates....AA company seniority and FSC seniority. You get to use your AA company seniority for bidding vacations and FSC seniority for all other bidding.

 

[blue collar]

^^^ THAT'S the way it should be

 

[psa8979]

IMO. SANDY will be bringing US and AMR F/S together sooner than later now. CONTRACT and HIRE DATE for ALL ! VOTE ! for PRO-UNION CANDIDATES. GO ! IAM.

 

[ograc]

The current AA FSC contract went into affect 9-12-12, and we wont see the contract language in writing for awhile. Under this new contract, any station with under 15 mainline flights daily will get outsourced. Some cities like SAN,SEA and PHX have more flights but are seasonal and dont qualify. Im not 100% certain, but it's my understanding that to get any outsourced or any new station staffed or re-staffed there has to be at least 25 mainline flights daily to do so. The odds of AA ever going to 25+ mainline flights in any spoke city are very slim at best even with a merger. At AA all FSC's use DOH whether FT or PT. If you bump to the ramp from another classification you will have two seniority dates....AA company seniority and FSC seniority. You get to use your AA company seniority for bidding vacations and FSC seniority for all other bidding.

If I'm understanding correctly... PT & FT retain DOH seniority as long as they stay within the classification. When PT are upgraded to FT their DOH is not adjusted. Personally, I'm not opposed to this. I do believe, however, many FT agents would be. Their argument would be "while you were working 4 hours a day as PT I was working 8 as FT. You should not be given full seniority credit when there is such a disparity in hours worked." AA's seniority practices do assign an adjusted seniority date (classification seniority) to anyone coming into the craft and class from outside the classification. Which policy is more fair? I guess it depends on who you ask. In the event of an acquisition or merger I still believe either represents a fairer integration of seniority then giving seniority "bumps" to the employees of the acquiring or surviving carrier by name. Dovetail by DOH or Classification... but lets dovetail by one or the other.
ograc

 

[ograc]

If that is true, then you should understand because you lost time also. There is only one fair way and that is DOH. Nothing else will do.

Rogue.....

I fully understand I lost time by being given an adjusted classification seniority date. I guess I never looked at it as losing time because the policy was consistently applied to any PT agent who got upgraded to FT. Additionally, there is credence to the argument that while PT you do not work the hours of a FT agent, therefore, there should be due consideration and an adjustment to seniority based on cumlative hours worked. I'm fine with either, however, I do not endorse seniority bumps to employees of the surviving carrier by name in the event of a merger or acquisition. DOH or Classification I believe we must "dovetail" by one or the other. IMO... "dovetailing" the seniority rosters is the fairest way.
ograc

 

[Ramp Rogue]

I fully understand I lost time by being given an adjusted classification seniority date. I guess I never looked at it as losing time because the policy was consistently applied to any PT agent who got upgraded to FT. Additionally, there is credence to the argument that while PT you do not work the hours of a FT agent, therefore, there should be due consideration and an adjustment to seniority based on cumlative hours worked. I'm fine with either, however, I do not endorse seniority bumps to employees of the surviving carrier by name in the event of a merger or acquisition. DOH or Classification I believe we must "dovetail" by one or the other. IMO... "dovetailing" the seniority rosters is the fairest way.
ograc

Ograc,

What airline did you get hired by, and what year?
From approx. 1980 to 1996, PTers got half credit for the time that they worked. If you were hired 1/1/90 and worked 4 hours per day as PT, then went FT on 1/1/92, your FT bidding date would be 1/1/91. Half credit for half time worked. The problem that I have is that when I was PT I worked 6 hours per day and only got credit for 4 hours. To complicate things further, there were stations where the PTers only worked 2 hours per day, but got 4 hours credit when they went FT. Then in 1996 Stephen Wolfe said that from 1996 forward anyone hired would go by DOH for everything whether they were FT or PT. But those hired between 1980 & 1996 had to stay adjusted. This is where the problem comes in. The only way to be fair to everyone is to go by DOH for everything, for everyone.

Rogue.....

 

[ograc]

Ograc,

What airline did you get hired by, and what year?
From approx. 1980 to 1996, PTers got half credit for the time that they worked. If you were hired 1/1/90 and worked 4 hours per day as PT, then went FT on 1/1/92, your FT bidding date would be 1/1/91. Half credit for half time worked. The problem that I have is that when I was PT I worked 6 hours per day and only got credit for 4 hours. To complicate things further, there were stations where the PTers only worked 2 hours per day, but got 4 hours credit when they went FT. Then in 1996 Stephen Wolfe said that from 1996 forward anyone hired would go by DOH for everything whether they were FT or PT. But those hired between 1980 & 1996 had to stay adjusted. This is where the problem comes in. The only way to be fair to everyone is to go by DOH for everything, for everyone.

Rogue.....

Rogue,
US - hired in 79. The issue is DOH, Classification Seniority, or preferential treatment for employees of the surviving carrier in the event of a merger / acquisition when integrating seniority. This is the question all of Fleet must consider in the event of a merger/acquisition with AA. This will be an issue to consider if or when the eventual merger / acquisition with AA drives a representation election between the IAM and TWU to determine the bargaining representative of the group going forward. IAM = dovetailed DOH/Classification integration. TWU = No member shall suffer an adverse effect in the event of a merger / acquisition regarding seniority integration. Thus a seniority bump for all existing members prior to seniority integration. Exactly what happened with the WN ramp TWU members with the acquisition of IAM represented Air Tran ramp. On the other hand... the IAM represented Customer Service members at WN were "dovetailed" with the Air Tran Customer Service regarding seniority integration. If you're US Fleet this issue must be given serious consideration if an eventual merger takes place and drives a representation election between the IAM and the TWU. DOH or Classification integration... mixed opinions on which is the most fair. IMO... both options are better and represent a fairer way to integrate seniority of two carriers than seniority bumps and preferential treatment for the employees of the acquiring or surviving carrier.
ograc