OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Clear, really? Can you not see this for what it really is?

I see exactly what it is. Legal defense.

It is usapa's weak attempt at trying to come up with an LUP. It is also usapa's one and only way to get out of using the Nicolau.

But you see judge Silver saw usapa's true purpose.

In other words, one of the main purposes of USAPA is to reject the Nicolau Award.

usapa would have had to have a LUP before forming usapa. Six years later after forming usapa and losing a DFR case it is to late to go searching around for a LUP.

You have your answer the west has told usapa and the east pilots several times, final answer no negotiations on seniority. Go to the company make whatever deal you can make and lets get on with it.

 

[cleardirect]

I think your opinion of what would constitute a "single agreement" under the terms of the East-West ALPA TA, specifically an APA-USAPA JCBA, is wrong.

Spin it anyway you want, but I won't believe it, till I see it. Time will tell.


seajay

Again to be accurate it is not an east west ALPA T/A. It is now usapa's T/A, judge Silver said usapa inherited the T/A along with all other responsibilites.

But explain why I am wrong. The T/A says single agreement. It does not say an agreement between east and west pilots. A JCBA that included east, west and american pilots would be a single agreement. It would include 29 of 30 section with one section sent to arbitration. How does a JCBA not satisfy the definition of a single agreement?

Read the term sheet. It says we will have a JCBA before we finish seniority.

 

[Pi brat]

You have your answer the west has told usapa and the east pilots several times, final answer no negotiations on seniority. Go to the company make whatever deal you can make and lets get on with it.

Yep, and everyone knows it, even if you keep getting invited to the party,

BTW, I just read the PHX update. Here's the quote:

"Tracy Parrella (who was serving as DDR for PHL Vice-Chair Mike Gillies) asked if they were involved in raising any capital during that period, to which they answered, “there was no capital raised during the last US Airways bankruptcy." When asked to clarify, this statement was repeated"

We KNOW that is not true. Maybe they didn't raise it, but it's clear that there was a ton of capital raised by the Luth Group. The merger could not have been completed without it being raised as AWA didn't have it.

 

[Black Swan]

Someone did come in who was not in our union and didn't work for our airline and settled this. His name was George Nicolau and he is a neutral third party we hired to do exactly that. Settle this. 5 years ago.

Had Nicolau not totally screwed this thing up, it most likely would have flown. If you have this much of an uproar over a seniority dispute, something is obviously wrong. It is like going to an orthopedic surgeon to perform a knee replacement, and the patient comes out a cripple and then dies from an infection. Something went wrong, and it is understandable because Nicolau is human.
The part that really got the East in an uproar is the new hires jumping guys with 15 yrs and close approximations in that seniority band. It was an absolutely bad arbitration. Unless someone in a leadership position for the West pilots steps up soon with an alternate idea that is fair, you are going to get a DOH proposal. Absolutely.

 

[Freighterguynow]

8 to 3 and after 7 years still don't get it

Wait till it's 18 to 3


if you even have the 3

 

[cleardirect]

Had Nicolau not totally screwed this thing up, it most likely would have flown. If you have this much of an uproar over a seniority dispute, something is obviously wrong. It is like going to an orthopedic surgeon to perform a knee replacement, and the patient comes out a cripple and then dies from an infection. Something went wrong, and it is understandable because Nicolau is human.
The part that really got the East in an uproar is the new hires jumping guys with 15 yrs and close approximations in that seniority band. It was an absolutely bad arbitration. Unless someone in a leadership position for the West pilots steps up soon with an alternate idea that is fair, you are going to get a DOH proposal. Absolutely.

Only one side is in an uproar. Nicolau used the same method with Us Airways and Trump. No uproar.

You may be in an uproar over 15 years difference but it took 17 years just to hold a job at Us Airways. That make the junior guys with 17 years no different than a new hire. so Nicolau place him right next to a west new hire. He placed an east captains right next to a west captain. Not Nicolau's fault those were the stats he had to work with.

Well if usapa is going to propose a DOH list do it. The court will then decide of it is fair or not. But usapa does not get to decide if it is fair. You see by continuing to say DOH you prove that in your mind there is only one method of fair, DOH. So there is no need for the west to waste our time talking to usapa about seniority. The same answer keeps coming up for the last 7 years, DOH or nothing.

usapa is the bargaining agent. usapa has the responsibility to represent the west fairly. The problem is usapa has no idea what fair is. all you have to do is take a look at the last attempted seniority proposal.

Submit your proposal already. Stop begging the west and get to work. The final answer is no we will not negotiate for seniority. What don't you understand?

 

[cleardirect]

Yep, and everyone knows it, even if you keep getting invited to the party,

BTW, I just read the PHX update. Here's the quote:

"Tracy Parrella (who was serving as DDR for PHL Vice-Chair Mike Gillies) asked if they were involved in raising any capital during that period, to which they answered, “there was no capital raised during the last US Airways bankruptcy." When asked to clarify, this statement was repeated"

We KNOW that is not true. Maybe they didn't raise it, but it's clear that there was a ton of capital raised by the Luth Group. The merger could not have been completed without it being raised as AWA didn't have it.

You know that is not true

just like you knew you were going to win LOA93 snapback, just like you knew Nicolau was going to use DOH, just like you knew the MDA case was going to toss the Nicolau award.(I use you as the plural since you said WE)

Why would a guy that is looking for a job from usapa walk in and lie about what you think you "knew"?

This is an investment banker that was there and involved. He has no dog in the fight. He said that US Airways raised no captain. But your opinion is, without facts that US Airways found money somewhere. How is it that you "know" this? Newspaper articles? (Sure they always get the facts correct) ALPA telling you? (now you believe what they say)Crew room rumors? (this one you believe)

 

[Zone5]

Again to be accurate it is not an east west ALPA T/A. It is now usapa's T/A, judge Silver said usapa inherited the T/A along with all other responsibilites.

But explain why I am wrong. The T/A says single agreement. It does not say an agreement between east and west pilots. A JCBA that included east, west and american pilots would be a single agreement. It would include 29 of 30 section with one section sent to arbitration. How does a JCBA not satisfy the definition of a single agreement?

Read the term sheet. It says we will have a JCBA before we finish seniority.

The TA that "says single agreement" was drafted and agreed to with respect to a JCBA between East and West. It never contemplated a follow-on merger with a third party, unless of course its authors were "fortune tellers" and to try to shoehorn a totally different "square" transaction into a "round" one defies logic.

MB does allow for a JCBA to be ratified prior to the SLI and that's likely to be the case in the event of an AMR merger. There will be three lists to be combined, just like there are as we speak.


seajay

 

[nevergiveup]

Only one side is in an uproar. Nicolau used the same method with Us Airways and Trump. No uproar.

You may be in an uproar over 15 years difference but it took 17 years just to hold a job at Us Airways. That make the junior guys with 17 years no different than a new hire. so Nicolau place him right next to a west new hire. He placed an east captains right next to a west captain. Not Nicolau's fault those were the stats he had to work with.

Well if usapa is going to propose a DOH list do it. The court will then decide of it is fair or not. But usapa does not get to decide if it is fair. You see by continuing to say DOH you prove that in your mind there is only one method of fair, DOH. So there is no need for the west to waste our time talking to usapa about seniority. The same answer keeps coming up for the last 7 years, DOH or nothing.

usapa is the bargaining agent. usapa has the responsibility to represent the west fairly. The problem is usapa has no idea what fair is. all you have to do is take a look at the last attempted seniority proposal.

Submit your proposal already. Stop begging the west and get to work. The final answer is no we will not negotiate for seniority. What don't you understand?

Have patience. APA will take good care of you.

 

[AAviator]

The suspense is killing me...

Will USAPA attempt to circumvent the NIC?

Will Parker step in the pile of dog####?

Will the west do more than sit as pawns to the evil empire?

Stay tuned....?

The re-runs started 4 years ago..... :mellow:

 

[nevergiveup]

Yawn...zzzzzzzz.

 

[cleardirect]

Have patience. APA will take good care of you.

Yes they will. Much better than usapa has.

Because you see the APA understand their obligations. They are also not blinded by DOH.

If I were an east pilot I would be praying that the APA does not do to you what usapa has done to the west. You know that whole majority rules thing.

 

[nevergiveup]

The TA that "says single agreement" was drafted and agreed to with respect to a JCBA between East and West. It never contemplated a follow-on merger with a third party, unless of course its authors were "fortune tellers" and to try to shoehorn a totally different "square" transaction into a "round" one defies logic.

MB does allow for a JCBA to be ratified prior to the SLI and that's likely to be the case in the event of an AMR merger. There will be three lists to be combined, just like there are as we speak.


seajay

I agree. The "let's get a contract," is just smoke and mirrors.

 

[Pi brat]

just like you knew you were going to win LOA93 snapback, just like you knew Nicolau was going to use DOH, just like you knew the MDA case was going to toss the Nicolau award.(I use you as the plural since you said WE)

Why would a guy that is looking for a job from usapa walk in and lie about what you think you "knew"?

This is an investment banker that was there and involved. He has no dog in the fight. He said that US Airways raised no captain. But your opinion is, without facts that US Airways found money somewhere. How is it that you "know" this? Newspaper articles? (Sure they always get the facts correct) ALPA telling you? (now you believe what they say)Crew room rumors? (this one you believe)

You(singular) know how you(plural) tell us(plural) that we need to read for ourselves and get educated? Well, I wasted a few minutes of my life and read the PHX "update". AGAIN, here's what the author wrote:

"On the first day of the meeting, the BPR interviewed a pair of “Investment Bankers” representing a firm which would serve the association as a resource providing analysis and advice in the event of a merger. We found these gentlemen to be well prepared, highly educated, articulate, and (apparently) capable. Interestingly enough, they represented US Airways UCC (Unsecured Creditors Committee) during the second bankruptcy. Tracy Parrella (who was serving as DDR for PHL Vice-Chair Mike Gillies) asked if they were involved in raising any capital during that period, to which they answered, “there was no capital raised during the last US Airways bankruptcy." When asked to clarify, this statement was repeated. Chairman Scherff advised these Investment Bankers in his opinion as to USAPA's dysfunction and inquired as to whether they were aware of the depths of it. His point was to give these gentlemen a clear understanding of the GROUP dynamic they will be dealing with. John went so far as to state, “If I were you, I would run as far away from this place as possible. These people do not want to hear anything they don't want to hear and I think that could be a problem for you because you seem to tell it like it is.”

Clear, how did the merger get done if there was no capital raised? We know that a few billion of outside dollars was raised to fund the merger and US's Chp 11 exit. NEITHER side had enough. Is it a matter of semantics? If so, it's the PHX reps doing the typing.

You know the best line in this update though? Scherff calling USAPA, a group that HE is a representative of, telling a someone that they are dysfunctional. I can't believe you guys elected him.

And you(plural) said USAPA wouldn't get a hundred cards. You(plural) said USAPA would lose the election. You(plural) said there was no way Judge Wake would be overturned, that he wrote the book on appeals. You(plural) said this would all be over by April, last April. See a trend here?

 

[cleardirect]

The TA that "says single agreement" was drafted and agreed to with respect to a JCBA between East and West. It never contemplated a follow-on merger with a third party, unless of course its authors were "fortune tellers" and to try to shoehorn a totally different "square" transaction into a "round" one defies logic.

MB does allow for a JCBA to be ratified prior to the SLI and that's likely to be the case in the event of an AMR merger. There will be three lists to be combined, just like there are as we speak.


seajay

The T/A also did not contemplate that it would last 7 years but here we are. The T/A may have been drafted as an agreement between east, west and the company but the words are the important part. It say single agreement. So those are the words that will apply.

It would be interesting to have usapa go to the arbitrator or a judge and try and explain that a JCBA is really not a single agreement and that the T/A has not been satisfied and that the agreed to arbitrated list is not really agreed to. Even though judge Silver has stated that usapa inherits ALL obligation from ALPA and that sad excuse that it was not us that was ALPA that signed that.

Are you not seeing the box you are in? Single agreement. Either you get a new contract and trigger the Nicolau or you stay on LOA93. Those are the choices.