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OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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What a stupid thing to say.

Only to the opportunistic, the morally "confused" and/or entirely unprincipled....and no...I do NOT ever expect you to speak the same language...expecially given that your notions of "morality" seem entirely contrived from "heroic" movies.
On that note? = You missed your calling here methinks. You would have a made a fine, west "spartan" 🙂
 
I’ve read (twice) the Order issued by Silver yesterday and I must say I am very impressed by her thorough grasp of the finer details of this case. We all know she has an overloaded docket and yet she still managed to be fully acquainted with the legal filings in Wake’s courtroom, the appeal to the 9[sup]th[/sup], along with all of the documents filed for the DJ. And having reviewed the legal questions at hand she has these opinions regarding the tapestry of viewpoints that were setting before her:

This is a hard case. (pg 1)​

In the end, the Court cannot provide as much guidance as it had hoped it could.​
Pursuant to the Ninth Circuit’s decision, any claim for breach of the duty of fair​
representation will not be ripe until a collective bargaining agreement is finalized.​

Message to the Company:

As for US Airways, it must negotiate with USAPA and it need not insist on any particular seniority regime. But US Airways must evaluate any proposal by USAPA with some care to ensure that it is reasonable and supported by a legitimate union purpose. (pg 1-2)​

the “decertification of ALPA and the certification of USAPA did not change the binding​
nature of the Transition Agreement.” (pg 6)​

But being “bound” by the Transition Agreement has very little meaning in the context​
of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any​
time “by written agreement of [USAPA] and the [US Airways].” (pg 7)​

And a union “may renegotiate seniority provisions of a collective bargaining agreement, even though the resulting changes are essentially retroactive or affect different employees unequally.” (Pg 7)​

This conclusion places US Airways in a difficult position. (Pg 8)​

Thus, the Court cannot grant US Airways prospective immunity from any legal action by the West Pilots. But based on the representation at oral argument that the seniority list is unlike other matters addressed in collective bargaining, it is unlikely the West Pilots could successfully allege claims against US Airways merely for not insisting that USAPA continue to advocate for the Nicolau Award. (Pg 8)​

Message to USAPA:

the Court … (“USAPA&rdquo😉 is free to pursue any seniority position it wishes during the collective bargaining negotiations. But with that freedom comes risk because the West Pilot Defendants1 may have viable legal claims in the future should the collective bargaining agreement contain a seniority provision harmful to a subsection of the union. (pg 1)​

When USAPA became the pilots’ new collective bargaining representative, it​
succeeded “to the status of the former representative without alteration in the contract terms.” (Pg 6)​

Thus, just as ALPA would have been bound by the Transition Agreement had it remained the pilots’ representative, USAPA is bound by the Transition Agreement. (Pg 6)​

Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach​
its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.​

and in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint stating US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. (Pg 9)​

Message to West Pilots

it is not possible to determine the viability of any claim for breach of the duty of fair representation until a particular seniority regime is ratified. (Pg 8)​

Thus, the best “declaratory judgment” the Court can offer is that USAPA’s seniority proposal does not automatically breach its duty of fair representation. (Pg 8)​


CG’s summary of the Order:

Silver wishes she could have done more to provide an actual resolution to the seniority dispute, but she was compelled to abide by the ruling of the 9[sup]th[/sup] which defined unquestionable ripeness as a ratified CBA. Absent such a CBA the court is without jurisdiction to determine if a Non-NIC seniority regime would violate USAPA’s DFR.

USAPA is free to bargain for any seniority regime during CBA negotiations it may choose. However, they do so at the substantial risk should a future west DFR challenge be made and if it can be proven that a legitimate union objective was not pursued in abrogating an arbitrated list. Without any further guidance from the court, USAPA is left on its own if to determine a course of action that will not expose them or their constituents to the risks already identified to them by the courts.

US Airways was not granted immunity and they are not assured that in pursuing a CBA with USAPA that collusion charges cannot be brought against them should they accept a Non-NIC seniority regime for S22. It seems the court, while stating that a collusion charge may be an unlikely win for the West pilots, was unable to provide a legal course of action that would prevent them from being harmed by engaging USAPA in CBA negotiations. The court (really the 9[sup]th[/sup]) sets the Company up in the role as the sole pre-ratification judge of whether USAPA’s actions are based upon a legitimate union objective. This is clearly the last place Management wants to be as they have maintained strict neutrality towards seniority integration.

So, while the court may have done all she could, the result of this order places the Company at even greater risk because they would have to abandon their neutrality position and thus would actually be put in the position of “negotiating” with USAPA for a list that they believe would pass the federal test of being a legitimate union objective. So, USAPA might put forth a straight DOH list and then the Company would have to say, “we don’t believe that would pass a DFR challenge so no we cannot accept that. Then USAPA comes back with fences for PHX and the Company has to again determine if those fences on a DOH list are a legitimate union objective or not. And so it would go.

Conclusion – this isn’t over. The Company will likely appeal based on the above scenario I just described but even if they don’t and feel they can potentially avoid collusion charges, there’s simply no telling if/when USAPA would put forth a list that the Company might deem to be free of collusion risk. Even if AOL wrote a letter to the Company stating that they did not intend to pursue collusion charges based on Silver’s Order, the threat of a hybrid-DFR does not go away because a different contingent of west pilots (or east if the so chose) could bring the same charges as AOL only represents the west pilots when a federal court creates a class for them to be represented by. As of now there is no single voice of representation that can speak or legally bind the west pilots to any course of action. So it’s up to USAPA and the Company to work through this pursuant to their own legal responsibilities under the RLA. Best guess – it will be appealed to the 9[sup]th[/sup] by the Company.
 
Ummm....well...there's the little, entirely inconsequential bit about usapa being the legal and actual bargaining agent...and I'd suggest that "scam" more clearly applies to any perveted fantasy wherein, with properly "logical" and of course...."righteous" notions, any incredibly twisted idea could even exist towards considering placing some 3 month/new-hire as "senior" to ANYone with 17 years of unbroken service!!! That last insanity?...Well..There's a true scam! 😉 Too bad for you that your bunch couldn't actually sell it to anyone in the end.

Sheesh!..I hate it when I can't immediately get some decent sleep after a long trip...Guess this latest good news is a bit interesting even to such as myself....Oh well 🙂
LEV-ER-AGE! Understand the words I am saying. How is usapa going to get the company to ACCEPT the usapa PROPOSAL to change seniority?

I am not talking about the merits or the perceived unfairness by the east. Since the judge said it was fair. Geesh yes, yes we all know that usapa is the legal bargaining agent you keep repeating that. So OK usapa can sit at the table and bargain with the company. What leverage does usapa have to get the company to agree to DOH?

Getting the company to accept something other than the nicolau is going to be costly. So far usapa can not even get the company to agree to industry standard, pay parity or line bidding. What leverage does usapa have to get the company to accept a seniority list that they have been clearly warned about?
 
Wash, rinse, dry and repeat as needed. Keep at it. Eventually...it might all...finally...make sense to you.
It all makes sense to me. I think Silver could have issued an identical Order last year with the same basic result, but I can clearly see her desire to provide judicial relief was impeded by the Ninth and she took it as far as she could. I'm not sure why she recanted on her determination that the DJ was ripe and then essentially said that it wasn't ripe a year later, but this was a very well reasoned judicial Order from someone who clearly understood the issues at hand. The Order was replete with warnings, risks and admonitions for USAPA, a few for the Company should they not thwart USAPA from failing to pursue a legitimate union objective, and virtually none for the west pilots.

We know what the west pilots can do (which isn't much until there is a CBA), and we can be almost assured of what USAPA will do if negotiations are re-opened by the NMB. What we don't know yet is if the Company will appeal to get a resolution before proceeding with negotiations or if they will accept the Court's premise that the west pilots would have a tough litigation battle ahead against the Company if they simply accepted a list that they had every reason to believe represented a legitimate union objective and abided by the RLA. It's doubtful USAPA could produce any such seniority proposal, but only the Company can decide if it's worth the risk to accept it.
 
We know what the west pilots can do (which isn't much until there is a CBA).....

Indeed...and even then? = "Good Luck"....Meanwhile...Let's just enjoy the day. Each is a miracle we can never regain or replace....and I'm already way behind the curve with the sleep deprivation and the now-imminent dinner date. 🙂
 
Indeed...and even then? = "Good Luck"....Meanwhile...Let's just enjoy the day;. Each is a miracle we can never regain or replace....and I'm already way behind the curve with the sleep deprivation and the now-imminent dinner date. 🙂

You talk this much during dinner? Or does your date consist of you and a mirror?
 
It all makes sense to me. I think Silver could have issued an identical Order last year with the same basic result, but I can clearly see her desire to provide judicial relief was impeded by the Ninth and she took it as far as she could. I'm not sure why she recanted on her determination that the DJ was ripe and then essentially said that it wasn't ripe a year later, but this was a very well reasoned judicial Order from someone who clearly understood the issues at hand. The Order was replete with warnings, risks and admonitions for USAPA, a few for the Company should they not thwart USAPA from failing to pursue a legitimate union objective, and virtually none for the west pilots.

We know what the west pilots can do (which isn't much until there is a CBA), and we can be almost assured of what USAPA will do if negotiations are re-opened by the NMB. What we don't know yet is if the Company will appeal to get a resolution before proceeding with negotiations or if they will accept the Court's premise that the west pilots would have a tough litigation battle ahead against the Company if they simply accepted a list that they had every reason to believe represented a legitimate union objective and abided by the RLA. It's doubtful USAPA could produce any such seniority proposal, but only the Company can decide if it's worth the risk to accept it.

Excellent post.
 
Because an east group will sue the company if he wants to force the nic, it goes both ways
A union or group can't sue the company because they will not accept a proposal. Read the dismissal of usapa law suit in NY. (another legal loss BTW for usapa)

Can east pilots sue the company because they will not accept $250 an hour pay rate?

Are you new to the RLA?

usapa has to negotiate with the company to get them to accept something other than the nicolau award. So I ask again what is usapa's LEVERAGE to get the company to accept a seniority list that they have been warned could carry a DFR law suit at the other side?
 
I’ve read (twice) the Order issued by Silver yesterday and I must say I am very impressed by her thorough grasp of the finer details of this case. We all know she has an overloaded docket and yet she still managed to be fully acquainted with the legal filings in Wake’s courtroom, the appeal to the 9[sup]th[/sup], along with all of the documents filed for the DJ. And having reviewed the legal questions at hand she has these opinions regarding the tapestry of viewpoints that were setting before her:

This is a hard case. (pg 1)​

In the end, the Court cannot provide as much guidance as it had hoped it could.​
Pursuant to the Ninth Circuit’s decision, any claim for breach of the duty of fair​
representation will not be ripe until a collective bargaining agreement is finalized.​

Message to the Company:





As for US Airways, it must negotiate with USAPA and it need not insist on any particular seniority regime. But US Airways must evaluate any proposal by USAPA with some care to ensure that it is reasonable and supported by a legitimate union purpose. (pg 1-2)​

the “decertification of ALPA and the certification of USAPA did not change the binding​
nature of the Transition Agreement.” (pg 6)​

But being “bound” by the Transition Agreement has very little meaning in the context​
of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any​
time “by written agreement of [USAPA] and the [US Airways].” (pg 7)​

And a union “may renegotiate seniority provisions of a collective bargaining agreement, even though the resulting changes are essentially retroactive or affect different employees unequally.” (Pg 7)​

This conclusion places US Airways in a difficult position. (Pg 8)​

Thus, the Court cannot grant US Airways prospective immunity from any legal action by the West Pilots. But based on the representation at oral argument that the seniority list is unlike other matters addressed in collective bargaining, it is unlikely the West Pilots could successfully allege claims against US Airways merely for not insisting that USAPA continue to advocate for the Nicolau Award. (Pg 8)​

Message to USAPA:





the Court … (“USAPA&rdquo😉 is free to pursue any seniority position it wishes during the collective bargaining negotiations. But with that freedom comes risk because the West Pilot Defendants1 may have viable legal claims in the future should the collective bargaining agreement contain a seniority provision harmful to a subsection of the union. (pg 1)​

When USAPA became the pilots’ new collective bargaining representative, it​
succeeded “to the status of the former representative without alteration in the contract terms.” (Pg 6)​

Thus, just as ALPA would have been bound by the Transition Agreement had it remained the pilots’ representative, USAPA is bound by the Transition Agreement. (Pg 6)​

Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach​
its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.​

and in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint stating US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. (Pg 9)​

Message to West Pilots





it is not possible to determine the viability of any claim for breach of the duty of fair representation until a particular seniority regime is ratified. (Pg 8)​

Thus, the best “declaratory judgment” the Court can offer is that USAPA’s seniority proposal does not automatically breach its duty of fair representation. (Pg 8)​


CG’s summary of the Order:

Silver wishes she could have done more to provide an actual resolution to the seniority dispute, but she was compelled to abide by the ruling of the 9[sup]th[/sup] which defined unquestionable ripeness as a ratified CBA. Absent such a CBA the court is without jurisdiction to determine if a Non-NIC seniority regime would violate USAPA’s DFR.

USAPA is free to bargain for any seniority regime during CBA negotiations it may choose. However, they do so at the substantial risk should a future west DFR challenge be made and if it can be proven that a legitimate union objective was not pursued in abrogating an arbitrated list. Without any further guidance from the court, USAPA is left on its own if to determine a course of action that will not expose them or their constituents to the risks already identified to them by the courts.

US Airways was not granted immunity and they are not assured that in pursuing a CBA with USAPA that collusion charges cannot be brought against them should they accept a Non-NIC seniority regime for S22. It seems the court, while stating that a collusion charge may be an unlikely win for the West pilots, was unable to provide a legal course of action that would prevent them from being harmed by engaging USAPA in CBA negotiations. The court (really the 9[sup]th[/sup]) sets the Company up in the role as the sole pre-ratification judge of whether USAPA’s actions are based upon a legitimate union objective. This is clearly the last place Management wants to be as they have maintained strict neutrality towards seniority integration.

So, while the court may have done all she could, the result of this order places the Company at even greater risk because they would have to abandon their neutrality position and thus would actually be put in the position of “negotiating” with USAPA for a list that they believe would pass the federal test of being a legitimate union objective. So, USAPA might put forth a straight DOH list and then the Company would have to say, “we don’t believe that would pass a DFR challenge so no we cannot accept that. Then USAPA comes back with fences for PHX and the Company has to again determine if those fences on a DOH list are a legitimate union objective or not. And so it would go.

Conclusion – this isn’t over. The Company will likely appeal based on the above scenario I just described but even if they don’t and feel they can potentially avoid collusion charges, there’s simply no telling if/when USAPA would put forth a list that the Company might deem to be free of collusion risk. Even if AOL wrote a letter to the Company stating that they did not intend to pursue collusion charges based on Silver’s Order, the threat of a hybrid-DFR does not go away because a different contingent of west pilots (or east if the so chose) could bring the same charges as AOL only represents the west pilots when a federal court creates a class for them to be represented by. As of now there is no single voice of representation that can speak or legally bind the west pilots to any course of action. So it’s up to USAPA and the Company to work through this pursuant to their own legal responsibilities under the RLA. Best guess – it will be appealed to the 9[sup]th[/sup] by the Company.



You are probably correct, the company files an appeal to the 9th seeking further clarification regarding their potential liability and therefore keeps the East-West JCBA talks stalled in the meantime, buying enough time to follow through with the AMR merger pursuit, un-distracted by USAPA. In the event the merger goes away, the can will have already been kicked further down the road. Without a merger when negotiations "eventually" continue, more time goes by and the ability of the company to agree to financial terms, sufficient to obtain a ratified agreement will not be possible, it will be a stalemate into the foreseeable future. Separate ops, as far as the eye can see.

If the merger happens, the process of achieving a JCBA will proceed, as slowly as possible. Just the SLI section will take a long time, as Parker has already let the cat out of the bag and said it will start with three separate DOH lists on the table from the get-go and will most likely end up in a MB three Judge Arbitration (how long will that take?). Eventually, a new JCBA will be achieved and taken on the whole, can then be litagated as "unfair" by whomever wants to. Only by then the defendants will be the "New" American Airlines and the APA, can you say deep pockets and the ability to draw out that process a long time and AOL will get to continue paying dues to another union they will once again be suing, that's got to get old after a decade or so.


seajay
 
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