OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

I do not think you understand the West or AOL's strategy.

We are not waiting for the east captains to rise up. The strategy is very simple. Might does not make right, we hold the high ground, there is absolutely no reason to give concessions to so that our careers can be further decimated by the east.

Further, there is no West strategic committee, or meeting of the minds to plan our strategy. There are always competing courses of action and the path is determined by default of who gets/got financed to defend our position.

Look at this board today. You have Lynyrd saying we need to go ahead and let usapa get a ratified contract so we can sue, then you have the competing camp (of which I belong) that says no...that is a very bad idea, particularly with a pending merger. So, who's plan moves forward for the West...the one that gets financed. As of now that is twofold. We have AOL representing the West class in the company DJ, and we have retained a separate law firm to represent West interest in case of a merger, and the accompanying SLI.

Bottom line...east captains can do whatever they see fit to do...but, guys like Woody and Dan Davis, and I suspect a very big majority of east pilots being fed the BS from usapa and eating it up with a giant spoon, have little to no clue about the position they hold, what the court rulings actually mean, or the penalty that awaits.

One more thing...you say we won't be getting the NIc. Very self assured statement,,,you do know that the Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC at this time??...that usapa has absolutely no other valid system seniority list to offer in the event of a merger,,and the company is still on the hook for collusion if they stray from the Nic and renegotiate a change to our CBA that says Nic is our combined seniority list.

So, who is waiting for the east captains to "rise up"? It ain't the West, we know who voted in usapa. I think it is the hard liners on the east that fear an uprising of east captains who have endured an extra 5 years of BS pay and work rules. After all, you know how much you are costing them more than the West does, you live it everyday.

I am happy for you that your meds are kicking in... do I dare notice that you didn't use the scab word once?

 

[Piedmont1984]

nic

We can never go back to the original PID, too much has changed and too much time has passed. The snapshot taken back then is archaic. We are where we are, not where we were. You say there is no reason for your side to offer concessions because doing so would further decimate your careers. I don't agree. The attrition surge begins in December. Holding the line at the Nic will mean no movement and separate ops (if we remain stand alone). If any growth takes place, it will more likely happen east.

That is a recipe for a decimated career. That represents the same kind of self hostage taking you have accused the east of commiting.

The east attorney (Szymanski) made it clear during the oral that USAPA was prepared to engage the west in a meaningful dialogue to resolve this dispute. If USAPA provides the west with the mechanism and the authority/autonomy do so and you reject the offer, that alone will hurt your future DFR.

Wye River was not a bad idea, but both sides had their backs up and it failed. But it has been several years now. If the ground rules could be replicated so that the west was given the same authority, autonomy and veto power it had back then on the issue of a SLI what do you have to lose - and who would step in to say it can't be done? The NMB ?, after watching this stalemate for the last 5.5 years?

And how would such an overture represent any harm to the west? If Silver's final ruling gives USAPA the elbow room to craft a non-Nic S22 (as did the 9th), with all the attendant risks, why would the west reject an offer to help shape the document? You already have a significant presence on the NAC, BPR and other committees. Boycotting USAPA is no longer a viable strategy.

Welcome to a locale we have been familiar with for some time - between a rock and a hard spot.

 

[Ames]

nic

We can never go back to the original PID, too much has changed and too much time has passed. The snapshot taken back then is archaic. We are where we are, not where we were. You say there is no reason for your side to offer concessions because doing so would further decimate your careers. I don't agree. The attrition surge begins in December. Holding the line at the Nic will mean no movement and separate ops (if we remain stand alone). If any growth takes place, it will more likely happen east.

That is a recipe for a decimated career. That represents the same kind of self hostage taking you have accused the east of commiting.

The east attorney (Szymanski) made it clear during the oral that USAPA was prepared to engage the west in a meaningful dialogue to resolve this dispute. If USAPA provides the west with the mechanism and the authority/autonomy do so and you reject the offer, that alone will hurt your future DFR.

Wye River was not a bad idea, but both sides had their backs up and it failed. But it has been several years now. If the ground rules could be replicated so that the west was given the same authority, autonomy and veto power it had back then on the issue of a SLI what do you have to lose - and who would step in to say it can't be done? The NMB ?, after watching this stalemate for the last 5.5 years?

And how would such an overture represent any harm to the west? If Silver's final ruling gives USAPA the elbow room to craft a non-Nic S22 (as did the 9th), with all the attendant risks, why would the west reject an offer to help shape the document? You already have a significant presence on the NAC, BPR and other committees. Boycotting USAPA is no longer a viable strategy.

Welcome to a locale we have been familiar with for some time - between a rock and a hard spot.

Please explain how usapa can engage in meaningful dialogue with the west as long as DOH is the centerpiece of their CB&L's. Until that is removed (and I very much doubt that will ever happen) there can be no meaningful dialogue. You seem to be the only level headed east poster on this forum any more so I await your reply.

 

[Ames]

And all of you Westoffs stand around in your circle jerk and puff your chest. You are angry, if you were not you wouldnt piss your pants all the time. To us, you are all a bunch of scabs. We could give a rats a$$ what you think or say. It must suck to know that A&W was the best you could do. It is also entertainment for me watching you guys stomp your feet like little girls. Piss off scab. LMFAO.

....and you say I'm angry? I think you're the one who needs to change his shorts.

 

[Ames]

Yes. The clear joy seeping out from every pore is readily apparent.

Typical eastushole. Chop up someone's posts to make it say what he wants it to.

I'll be ignoring you from now on, old fool.

 

[Phoenix]

Please explain how usapa can engage in meaningful dialogue with the west as long as DOH is the centerpiece of their CB&L's. Until that is removed (and I very much doubt that will ever happen) there can be no meaningful dialogue. You seem to be the only level headed east poster on this forum any more so I await your reply.

If the West refuses to participate until section 22 is ratified, and chooses instead to patiently await the time they can sue, then that is certainly an option they are entitled to.

 

[Ames]

LMAO.

Look, another eastie who has completely lost it.

Most of them have. I will only be responding to the ones that appear to have a bit of sanity any more. The rest of these idiots (and they know who they are) are not worth my time.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Please explain how usapa can engage in meaningful dialogue with the west as long as DOH is the centerpiece of their CB&L's. Until that is removed (and I very much doubt that will ever happen) there can be no meaningful dialogue. You seem to be the only level headed east poster on this forum any more so I await your reply.

The C&BL's say 'DOH principles', not DOH. Szymanski reiterated such at the oral. USAPA has the wiggle room to be creative, without changing the language in the C&BLs.

 

[Phoenix]

Typical eastushole. Chop up someone's posts to make it say what he wants it to.

I'll be ignoring you from now on, old fool.

Nic is demonstrating an important progression... denial often includes outbursts of anger at the beginning.. dropping pejoratives like "scab" are indications of moving toward acceptance. Everyone gets there eventually.

 

[Metroyet]

nic

We can never go back to the original PID, too much has changed and too much time has passed. The snapshot taken back then is archaic. We are where we are, not where we were. You say there is no reason for your side to offer concessions because doing so would further decimate your careers. I don't agree. The attrition surge begins in December. Holding the line at the Nic will mean no movement and separate ops (if we remain stand alone). If any growth takes place, it will more likely happen east.

That is a recipe for a decimated career. That represents the same kind of self hostage taking you have accused the east of commiting.

The east attorney (Szymanski) made it clear during the oral that USAPA was prepared to engage the west in a meaningful dialogue to resolve this dispute. If USAPA provides the west with the mechanism and the authority/autonomy do so and you reject the offer, that alone will hurt your future DFR.

Wye River was not a bad idea, but both sides had their backs up and it failed. But it has been several years now. If the ground rules could be replicated so that the west was given the same authority, autonomy and veto power it had back then on the issue of a SLI what do you have to lose - and who would step in to say it can't be done? The NMB ?, after watching this stalemate for the last 5.5 years?

And how would such an overture represent any harm to the west? If Silver's final ruling gives USAPA the elbow room to craft a non-Nic S22 (as did the 9th), with all the attendant risks, why would the west reject an offer to help shape the document? You already have a significant presence on the NAC, BPR and other committees. Boycotting USAPA is no longer a viable strategy.

Welcome to a locale we have been familiar with for some time - between a rock and a hard spot.

You can never go back to the PID. That's true. However, everything that has transpired since then is utterly irrelevant. The TA Is the guiding document and there is exactly ZERO room to go back and do a "retro" PID that...idly enough...would solely favor the East at the SOLE expense of the West. What would be the "legitimate purpose" of that again? Sound familiar?

Did you know that Germany, to this day, is still returning stolen works of art the Nazis took back in the 30s and 40s? Just because the stolen property has been held onto for a number of years is meaningless. "But your honor! We stole that YEARS AGO?!" That's your argument? It's been a smashing success I see.

Even if the USAPA found a couple of West guys to superficially "participate" in a sham mechanism derived singularly by the East, (again, sound familiar) crafting DOH lite, the DFR rests upon the individual pilot. The WEST'S case isn't diminished one iota by any level of participation one way or another. If you guys feel that storming head first into the "unquestionably ripe" DFR is a sound business plan, go ahead. However, you MUST know by now that the company...and everybody else except USAPA...is unwilling to go there. The ninth cleared the way for you to leap off a cliff...and there stands USAPA at the precipice, mouth agape in the biggest smile achievable, looking over their shoulder frantically waving the other groups forward..."C'mon guys! This is it! We always told you we could do this!"

Everybody else turns around and walks away to USAPAs ultimate dismay.

That's your situation is its clearest form. You're still absolutely demanding that you be allowed to checkmate yourselves on one hand and then demand payment with the other. I'll let you draw your own conclusions regarding how well that's going to play out. First however, look at your W2 for the last decade. It's not changing.

 

[Metroyet]

The C&BL's say 'DOH principles', not DOH. Szymanski reiterated such at the oral. USAPA has the wiggle room to be creative, without changing the language in the C&BLs.

Do whatever you want then. Just don't be shocked when when the West turns your "wiggle room" into a turkey shoot in the court room. "Fair" has already been determined by the one guy you wanted. George Nicolau. The Federal Courts won't ever even approach trying to determine fairness. That's never been the question. If USAPA crafts a list with the exact same benefits and concessions for Each pilot as outlined by the Nic you might be right. Any robbing West Peter to pay East Paul...which lets face it, we ALL know that's the entire intent of your fake union, USAPA is doomed. To this day, they have never articulated exactly what the legitimate union purpose for disregarding the Nic award is. They can't. The fact is THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE PURPOSE. There never has been. I'd love to read the transcript from the conversation in the back of the van that birthed your dear union. I'm sure the legitimate union purpose was spelled out clearly. HA!

 

[EastUS1]

No. You should have just STFU.

Or what?....You'll snarl ferociously and brandish your Xbox? 😉 Tsk, tsk young one...what manners you have.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Let me reiterate. I think that a DFR is inevitable from some corner at some point in the future. That is not the same as a winnable DFR, or one that results in a lucrative settlement which your side envisions.

If USAPA offers what I have described, call it what you will, vilify it all you wish, but reject the overture at your own peril.

I also think there are more than just a couple of west outliers willing to support the effort, if not the outcome.

Some of you are clinging to an ideal you have enshrined in your imagination, as have some on our side of this dispute. It's time for some 'Realpolitik'.

 

[EastUS1]

If the West refuses to participate until section 22 is ratified, and chooses instead to patiently await the time they can sue, then that is certainly an option they are entitled to.

That seems the probable case, should the likely merger scenario not simply overrun events. I wouldn't be completely shocked if it proved possible to work out sli with APA without arbitration, and that's but one possibility that would change the game quickly.

 

[Metroyet]

If USAPA offers what I have described, call it what you will, vilify it all you wish, but reject the overture at your own peril.

What's the "peril"? Without a legitimate union purpose, there is no peril. Has any Judge ever put the West on notice that they may be imperiling themselves?

You may have an overture, but that's it. If its not at least as beneficial to the West as the Nic award, you have an unquestionably ripe DFR that was easily proved in front of a Jury one. Injunction followed by summary judgement will be a piece of cake if the company were ever dumb enough to proceed without their much begged for cover...which they aren't getting.