OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Metroyet]

That seems the probable case, should the likely merger scenario not simply overrun events. I wouldn't be completely shocked if it proved possible to work out sli with APA without arbitration, and that's but one possibility that would change the game quickly.

Not unless USAPA Forwards the Nic award for integration. The game will quickly come to a screeching halt in the Federal Court system.

 

[cactusboy53]

The C&BL's say 'DOH principles', not DOH. Szymanski reiterated such at the oral. USAPA has the wiggle room to be creative, without changing the language in the C&BLs.

...it says: ..."To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot's un-merged career expectations."

First of all this organization (and its CBL's & UOM construction) came into life AFTER the Nicolau seniority list was adjudicated, and was formed for the sole purpose to evade the same. Second, this organization can not pick which tenets & portions of the contract(s) that it wishes to support/defend (although it's making a darned good try). Third, what were the "un-merged career expectations" of a former US Air pilot in May 2005 (when the PID was set)?

We will have to see exactly what Judge Silver says in her official opinion.

What a great use of MY dues money....to make me pay for you to get me to negotiate away my seniority that was delivered in an agreed upon manner.

USAPA........The pariah of the Commercial Aviation community.

 

[EastUS1]

Not unless USAPA Forwards the Nic award for integration. The game will quickly come to a screeching halt in the Federal Court system.

Prior to the 9th's ruling; I would have thought that possible. As things stand?....I very much doubt any court would jump right in and do that. Time will tell.

 

[EastUS1]

Typical eastushole. Chop up someone's posts to make it say what he wants it to.

I'll be ignoring you from now on, old fool.

Point taken. I'll leave this last masterpiece entirely untouched, as proper tribute and testemonial to the overwhelming joy with which you clearly greet each and every day. 🙂

 

[EastUS1]

Has any Judge ever put the West on notice that they may be imperiling themselves?

Have any pedestrians that failed to look both left and right before crossing and were thus, tragically run over by vehicles far larger than themselves, ever been put on notice beforehand by a judge?

 

[cleardirect]

That seems the probable case, should the likely merger scenario not simply overrun events. I wouldn't be completely shocked if it proved possible to work out sli with APA without arbitration, and that's but one possibility that would change the game quickly.

Not likely.

The APA saw what happened to ALPA and the TWA suit by "working it out". With the legal struggle we have here, the TWA guys and the untrustworthyness of east pilot it would be better to let an outside factor decide and remove any DFR liability.

In addition why would the APA agree to DOH? Usapa is locked into that position. So if APA say no DOH the negotiations end at that point. When the arbitrator say you are not getting DOH. What does usapa do? Sit in the corner and wait for the result?

 

[EastUS1]

Did you know that Germany, to this day, is still returning stolen works of art the Nazis took back in the 30s and 40s? Just because the stolen property has been held onto for a number of years is meaningless. "But your honor! We stole that YEARS AGO?!" That's your argument? It's been a smashing success I see.

Being defeated always carries a price. Have you also noticed that neither the Russsians, nor any of the victorious, allied nations, felt at ALL equally compelled to return property stolen from the Nazi Reich's Germany? Quite the contrary in fact. Consider that for a second before making any universal assumptions as to how law and general jurisprudence truly work out in the real world. Treason, for example, is only treason...if a given revolution fails.

 

[EastUS1]

....and the untrustworthyness of east pilot .....

Work on your english kid. Meanwhile; you needn't make yet more feeble attempts at selling anyone here the supposedly inevitable nature of the nic. No one's buying it.

cleardirect: "In addition why would the APA agree to DOH?" I can think of a number of reasons, not to say they would/will though. Given that the east list is largely soon-to-be-gone within a very few years; why should the APA fear DOH with substantial fences?

Other than the, imo, entirely faith-based feelings of the west, that the whole world necessarily shudders in fear at the very thought of AOL's imminent assaults in any/all courtrooms; exactly why should they favor the nic?

 

[Metroyet]

Prior to the 9th's ruling; I would have thought that possible. As things stand?....I very much doubt any court would jump right in and do that. Time will tell.

If, for some unknown reason, the Arbitration panel receives a non Nic list to integrate, OR APA and USAPA were to somehow negotiate an integration using a non Nic seniority list, either way, it signals a close out of S22.

It's a long way from the mere "proposal" yet short of ratification. The "harm the West fears" is essentially carved in stone at that point. Is it ripe then? Only 2 1/2 additional years of stalled merger, LOA93, C2004, and Parker laughing all the way to the bank to find out.

 

[Metroyet]

Have any pedestrians that failed to look both left and right before crossing and were thus, tragically run over by vehicles far larger than themselves, ever been put on notice beforehand by a judge?

Apples and Doorknobs comparison.

 

[Phoenix]

"The Lost Cause.."

Keep the paper, it tells all our history o’er, from the birth of our dream to its last; modest, and born of the Angel Hope, like our hope of success, it passed.

 

[cleardirect]

Work on your english kid. Meanwhile; you needn't make yet more feeble attempts at selling anyone here the supposedly inevitable nature of the nic. No one's buying it.

cleardirect: "In addition why would the APA agree to DOH?" I can think of a number of reasons, not to say they would/will though. Given that the east list is largely soon-to-be-gone within a very few years; why should the APA fear DOH with substantial fences?

Other than the, imo, entirely faith-based feelings of the west, that the whole world necessarily shudders in fear at the very thought of AOL's imminent assaults in any/all courtrooms; exactly why should they favor the nic?

so in your mind the APA is willing to allow many east pilots ahead of them because it will only be for a few years.

How did they treat the TWA guys with only a few years ahead of them?

How did the fences work out at NWA and republic? Not so good. A good seniority list has very few fences. Fences are fixes to unfair lists.

 

[EastUS1]

.... and Parker laughing all the way to the bank to find out.

Sadly Metro....that much, we can never have any argument over. As it's all pure opinons at present; I'll still have to guess that no court's likely to inject it's self into this mess until a contract has actually been established. This again is pure speculation...but I've difficulty seeing that happen in such a way as to produce any injunction that would prevent merger proceedings. At whatever point in time a court could hold the existence of a contract to be a fait accompli...then...let the games begin....said games likely to take years methinks, and with far less chances of success than believed in the west camp. I could, of course, be completely wrong. it's not like that's never happened before in my life, and is certain to sometimes occur in the future 😉

 

[EastUS1]

so in your mind the APA is willing to allow many east pilots ahead of them because it will only be for a few years..

By no means. My assumption is that fences would prevent any advantageous useage of DOH by the US pilots, which, I believe, would seem very reasonable to the APA. A seven year fence for example, would eliminate any reasonable concerns for them. Their acceptance of the nic case seems more tenous a notion to me, but it's certain that we've both our inherent biases when evaluating the situation.

 

[nic4us]

Let me reiterate. I think that a DFR is inevitable from some corner at some point in the future. That is not the same as a winnable DFR, or one that results in a lucrative settlement which your side envisions.

If USAPA offers what I have described, call it what you will, vilify it all you wish, but reject the overture at your own peril.

I also think there are more than just a couple of west outliers willing to support the effort, if not the outcome.

Some of you are clinging to an ideal you have enshrined in your imagination, as have some on our side of this dispute. It's time for some 'Realpolitik'.

1. The "winnable DFR" is far far greater a possibility when using a non-Nic for the West , than any plausible DFR mounted by east pilots toward usapa for failing to achieve the DFR that a DOH seniority list guarantees if the first place.

2. The threat of the "winnable DFR" is what is keeping the company from working with usapa to achieve the same.

3. The course of event post PID have no bearing on the outcome of the Nic arbitration or its validity.

4. As a West pilot I am in absolutely no mood to reward usapa or the east pilots who voted them on the property for doing so. As a matter of fact I am inclined to push this thing until I retire just on the principle of not rewarding sleazball behavior.

5. There are definitely "outliers" on the West who would capitulate to usapa for a raise. Particularly folks at the top near retirement or at the extreme bottom. However, the vast majority of West pilots will push this thing to the end, either of usapa or until a Nic integration.