Anyone whose followed the pilot forum the last 100 years (seems like) would know that is the same handful of pilots (or whomever) posting over and over and over. Talk to any real US pilot and they are using common sense about expectations. USAPA, will of course try to get the best deal for the pilots. The disgruntled ones will be hanging out on the court house steps with their lawyers in tow irregardless of the outcome.
Parker can merge but he lacks integration skills
- Thread starter snapthis
- Start date
OP
- Dec 23, 2009
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What exactly is a "real" US Airways pilot? Jamie? Otherwise known as End_of_APA? Oh, I meant ALPA.
We know they want to get the best deal for USAPA pilots.
end_of_alpa, on 28 February 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:
In fact, lets just state the obvious based on Wilson's statement:
US Airways equities:
637 mil. 2012 profit
Superior management team (according to APA)
ACTUAL Airbus deliveries (not new orders made in BK like AMR)
Strong hubs in CLT and PHL
No REAL furloughs (west yes, but they could have come east)
High attrition due to retirements
AMR equities:
BANKRUPTCY!
Poor management
1,500 REAL furloughs
10 years of losses
Numerous market pullbacks
And that's the short list....in OUR FAVOR.
So who has the better argument in arbitration based on Wilson's statement?
Any AMR pilots want to chime in?
The real pilots are the ones in cockpit on any given day, doing thier job and flying people safely and efficiently to destination.
Some of the "pilots" on the US thread are most certainly furloughed with far too much time on their hands or in reality someone else entirely...some post continuously 24/7 and can't possibly be out flying trips. Or are in need of counseling to help them overcome the addiction to posting. lol
Some of the "pilots" on the US thread are most certainly furloughed with far too much time on their hands or in reality someone else entirely...some post continuously 24/7 and can't possibly be out flying trips. Or are in need of counseling to help them overcome the addiction to posting. lol
OP
- Dec 23, 2009
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- #34
You ever hear of a layover? Hotels have wifi.
How come I feel like I am exchanging thoughts with someone who is dumber than a bag of...LOL
Ooooh, good one snapdragon. Me thinks you are trying to stir up a little kitty doo. I just don't think you are going to have any success stiring it up. Believe me when I tell you that everyone at US knows to ignore the pilot dust up as just a waste of time. The seniority issue will turn out the way the APA and USAPA union members decide. All the hyberbole on the US forum about the seniority issue is pretty much a moot point. APA has the numbers to make the issue go away once and for all, just so you know LOL
OP
- Dec 23, 2009
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- #36
JK,
Not stirring the pot, just providing the info. If we are in the process of merging with AA it would seem logical the forums should be combined. There is one seniority list which will be presented to APA, it's the arbitrated list. There is one party that is holding up the process by not abiding by their end of the agreement.
I just posted the HP pilot legal update on the US Airways pilot forum. It reads in part:
"Seniority between America West and US Airways pilots is settled. There will be no do-over. We will not concede or waive that right. We will oppose any process that can be viewed as waiving our rights."
" We will insist that only two lists be presented in the McCaskill-Bond process: the Nicolau and APA’s. Any other path will be challenged in federal court."
snapthis,
I understand the issues involved with the SLI integration mess at US all too well. I cannot speak to the issue as I am not a party to it. What I do understand is that APA will decide how this plays out simply because they have far more pilots than US. No ill will meant toward any group of US pilots, it is simply a matter of the math at this point. Personally I am tired of hearing about the issue and I think the majority of non pilots at US and AA are tired of hearing about this. Get it settled already!
I understand the issues involved with the SLI integration mess at US all too well. I cannot speak to the issue as I am not a party to it. What I do understand is that APA will decide how this plays out simply because they have far more pilots than US. No ill will meant toward any group of US pilots, it is simply a matter of the math at this point. Personally I am tired of hearing about the issue and I think the majority of non pilots at US and AA are tired of hearing about this. Get it settled already!
OP
- Dec 23, 2009
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- #38
JK,
I had hopes this would have been over in 2009 after the Addington trial. The complicating factor is the slow pace of the justice system.
From the update:
"The Ninth Circuit told us we must wait for a ratified contract before we can sue to implement the Nicolau. That time has now come, so we are preparing to go back to court one last time. As part of the preparations for a possible return to federal court, West counsel recently sent “Litigation Hold” letters to USAPA (click here), US Airways, (click here) and the APA (click here). While the three letters differ somewhat, an excerpt from the letter written to USAPA helps to indicate where potential litigation is headed:"
I wish I had a timeframe for you but it's our justice system.
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
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I must ask, with the assumption that the merger goes thru, what exactly are you looking for with these legal battles? If the merged airlines along with APA can come up with something that suites a majority of the pilot group, why continue? I'm not trying to start anything, just not fully educated about the entire situation.
Thanks..
Thanks..
I'm not a pilot at any airline, but my assumption is that the APA and USAPA will not manage to settle a seniority list integration, and thus it will be submitted to arbitration (consistent with McCaskill-Bond). And if the two unions were able to agree on SLI, it would be inconsistent with the Nic list. Another assumption is that in case of arbitration, USAPA might try to submit a seniority list that is not the Nic list but that the arbitration panel will instead use the Nic list on its own. The result will no doubt enrage the East pilots, satisfy the West pilots, and disappoint the APA pilots. But everyone will live with the result unless the APA and the East conspire to dissolve the APA and form a new union, and then claim that nobody is bound by the arbitration to which they earlier agreed. Sort of USAPA Part Deux.
Your post mentioned an agreement to which "a majority" of the pilots found acceptable but that is not what will be required - the West pilots will have a legitimate claim if the arbitration panel begins with a US East & West list that is not as advantageous to the West pilots as the existing Nic list. The APA and the East pilots comprise the vast majority of the combined pilots, but the West pilots have an enforceable arbitration result on their side. I think it's a given that the arbitration panel will start with the APA list and the Nic list and work from there.
OP
- Dec 23, 2009
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- #41
Wings,
I think it is a good question and FWAAA did a good job of breaking it all down. This will ultimately end up in court the way things are headed.
I forsee a list that uses the NIC list with 10 year fences that effectively makes the list moot. No 787, 777, 737, LAX, JFK, MIA, ORD, DFW, SFO for anyone from USairways during the time the fences are in force. They already prolonged the result enough to let most pilots either retire or move up to the A330. Congratulations on that. By the time the fence comes down, most will be long gone. Yes I said SFO. I think it will reopen as a 737 only base. STL? Nah, it is and will be toast in under a year.
OP
- Dec 23, 2009
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- #44
This is a good read from a third lister.
"Since I joined this forum, the East/West arguments have been heated, to say the least. Acronyms tossed about like M & M's, legal threats, Nic this and that. It is difficult to extract meaningful, real life information from these debates.
I would very much like to hear examples of what has happened (or would have happened under certain proposals) that makes guys so hot about this.
For example - "If we implement the Nic, a West CA hired in 2000 will be senior to an East FO hired in 1992. He was a CA pre-merge; therefore, he should remain one..." or "USAPA's proposal would send hordes of 18 year FO's to Phoenix and they'll take all our CA jobs."
Does this ^^ sound about right? I'm not trying to be facetious, I am really trying to understand. DOH is probably dead on arrival. How about length of service? When you inject career expectation into the equation, it gets very ugly due to the subjective nature of it. Very hard to quantify.
I am a third-lister, so I am theoretically neutral on this. (A third-lister being a pilot hired at US after the US/HP merge who is junior to all pre-merger East and West pilots regardless of list in use.) So here's my best attempt to explain the situation as neutrally as I can.
The US/HP integration attempted to integrate two of the most demographially dissimilar pilot groups ever to merge in our industry's history. HP started in 1983 and had a RELATIVELY uniform pattern of hiring throughout its history (not many massive gluts of hiring or long gaps with no new hires). US - itself the product of many prior mergers - had a dramatically older pilot group with some enormous gaps in hiring (nobody from 1990-1998 for example) and some huge gluts (1986-1989 for example) in the list, due to both hiring "binges" and the placement of pilots on the list from prior integrations (PSA, Piedmont, Trump, etc.).
At the time of the merger, HP was hiring and US had hundreds of pilots on furlough, dating back to 1989 hires.
Nicolau's arbitration award attempted to balance the enormous differences in the two groups (quite possibly an impossible task). The award granted the first 500-ish spots on the list to the East (US), accounting for their widebody (767 and 330) aircraft which the West (HP) did not have at merger time. Next all remaining active pilots on both lists were ratioed in, first on a ratio for 757s (common to both airlines) then for 737/320 (also common to both). Thereafter, the furloughed East pilots were placed on the bottom. Seems reasonable enough, until you look at the demographics.
The bottom active East pilot at the time of the merger had about 17 years in at US, whereas the bottom West pilot was a new hire fresh from the schoolhouse. This LOS disparity meant that West pilots on the lower half of their list were placed among East pilots with over a decade more LOS than they had. This obviously caused heartburn to many on the East.
The East had advocated for a DOH list before Arbitrator Nicolau. The problem with this is that some 80% of the West list, in this scenario, would have been slotted below East pilots furloughed at the time of the merger. While not technically a staple, it would have been an effective staple for many West pilots (since, save for several hundred hired from 1998-2000, the entire East list at the merger was hired in or before 1989). Obviously, the West had a real problem with this concept.
After the Nicolau Award was released, the West obviously fared better than the East AS A WHOLE under it. The East was desperate to get out of it. Attempts to vacate the award were made through ALPA and through the courts. Eventually, the idea was struck to elect a new union whose presence might invalidate the award. So, a card drive was started, and (thanks to the East's 2:1 size advantage versus the West) USAPA was elected. USAPA has been attempting to dispose of the Nicolau Award ever since, and a number of court cases have come along since which have thoroughly muddied the legal waters.
The West (through a self-funded LLC, the Army of Leonidas [AOL]), has vigorously defended the Nicolau Award and insists that its list be part of the AA merger. The East (through USAPA, the union representing all US Airways pilots) has insisted the Nicolau Award is dead and that it is free to negotiate a seniority regime of its choosing with the Company.
Lawsuits: The Addington case. Some West pilots (Addington being the lead plaintiff) sued USAPA for breach of DFR for failing to implement the Nicolau Award. The Addington plaintiffs won this case, in Federal court in Phoenix, several years ago. USAPA appealed to the Ninth Circuit, which ruled that the the DFR in Addington would not be "ripe" until a JCBA incorporating a non-Nicolau list was signed. (The Ninth did NOT, however, comment on the merits of the underlying DFR case.)
The situation being unresolved, US Airways filed a Declaratory Judgment Action in Federal court in Phoenix in 2011 to resolve its liability, if any, in the seniority dispute. In the case, US Airways states that it is neutral on the seniority dispute, but wishes to ensure that it cannot be held liable to either side depending on the outcome. The Judge in that case rules that USAPA CAN pursue a non-Nicolau seniority regime, provided it is supported by a LEGITIMATE UNION PURPOSE. She also does NOT offer US Airways any protection from liability. Therefore, US Airways has appealed this ruling to the Ninth Circuit, where the matter pends today.
Enter the AA merger. AOL's attorney suggests the MOU is a ratified contract (or at least a path to one), making the dispute in the Addington case - as set aside by the Ninth - "ripe". AOL's position is that any non-Nicolau list damages the West pilots and therefore insists that the Nicolau list be the list used to integrate with the AA pilots. If USAPA, APA, and the Company don't use it, AOL intends to seek a restraining order enjoining the integration process (but not the merger, they say) until the courts rule. USAPA says this is nonsense and intends to pursue a DOH solution to the East/West scenario (and with APA, per its Constitution). The Company just wants to avoid being sued by anyone, no matter how the list comes down.
If you're not confused yet, you haven't been paying enough attention!"
"Since I joined this forum, the East/West arguments have been heated, to say the least. Acronyms tossed about like M & M's, legal threats, Nic this and that. It is difficult to extract meaningful, real life information from these debates.
I would very much like to hear examples of what has happened (or would have happened under certain proposals) that makes guys so hot about this.
For example - "If we implement the Nic, a West CA hired in 2000 will be senior to an East FO hired in 1992. He was a CA pre-merge; therefore, he should remain one..." or "USAPA's proposal would send hordes of 18 year FO's to Phoenix and they'll take all our CA jobs."
Does this ^^ sound about right? I'm not trying to be facetious, I am really trying to understand. DOH is probably dead on arrival. How about length of service? When you inject career expectation into the equation, it gets very ugly due to the subjective nature of it. Very hard to quantify.
I am a third-lister, so I am theoretically neutral on this. (A third-lister being a pilot hired at US after the US/HP merge who is junior to all pre-merger East and West pilots regardless of list in use.) So here's my best attempt to explain the situation as neutrally as I can.
The US/HP integration attempted to integrate two of the most demographially dissimilar pilot groups ever to merge in our industry's history. HP started in 1983 and had a RELATIVELY uniform pattern of hiring throughout its history (not many massive gluts of hiring or long gaps with no new hires). US - itself the product of many prior mergers - had a dramatically older pilot group with some enormous gaps in hiring (nobody from 1990-1998 for example) and some huge gluts (1986-1989 for example) in the list, due to both hiring "binges" and the placement of pilots on the list from prior integrations (PSA, Piedmont, Trump, etc.).
At the time of the merger, HP was hiring and US had hundreds of pilots on furlough, dating back to 1989 hires.
Nicolau's arbitration award attempted to balance the enormous differences in the two groups (quite possibly an impossible task). The award granted the first 500-ish spots on the list to the East (US), accounting for their widebody (767 and 330) aircraft which the West (HP) did not have at merger time. Next all remaining active pilots on both lists were ratioed in, first on a ratio for 757s (common to both airlines) then for 737/320 (also common to both). Thereafter, the furloughed East pilots were placed on the bottom. Seems reasonable enough, until you look at the demographics.
The bottom active East pilot at the time of the merger had about 17 years in at US, whereas the bottom West pilot was a new hire fresh from the schoolhouse. This LOS disparity meant that West pilots on the lower half of their list were placed among East pilots with over a decade more LOS than they had. This obviously caused heartburn to many on the East.
The East had advocated for a DOH list before Arbitrator Nicolau. The problem with this is that some 80% of the West list, in this scenario, would have been slotted below East pilots furloughed at the time of the merger. While not technically a staple, it would have been an effective staple for many West pilots (since, save for several hundred hired from 1998-2000, the entire East list at the merger was hired in or before 1989). Obviously, the West had a real problem with this concept.
After the Nicolau Award was released, the West obviously fared better than the East AS A WHOLE under it. The East was desperate to get out of it. Attempts to vacate the award were made through ALPA and through the courts. Eventually, the idea was struck to elect a new union whose presence might invalidate the award. So, a card drive was started, and (thanks to the East's 2:1 size advantage versus the West) USAPA was elected. USAPA has been attempting to dispose of the Nicolau Award ever since, and a number of court cases have come along since which have thoroughly muddied the legal waters.
The West (through a self-funded LLC, the Army of Leonidas [AOL]), has vigorously defended the Nicolau Award and insists that its list be part of the AA merger. The East (through USAPA, the union representing all US Airways pilots) has insisted the Nicolau Award is dead and that it is free to negotiate a seniority regime of its choosing with the Company.
Lawsuits: The Addington case. Some West pilots (Addington being the lead plaintiff) sued USAPA for breach of DFR for failing to implement the Nicolau Award. The Addington plaintiffs won this case, in Federal court in Phoenix, several years ago. USAPA appealed to the Ninth Circuit, which ruled that the the DFR in Addington would not be "ripe" until a JCBA incorporating a non-Nicolau list was signed. (The Ninth did NOT, however, comment on the merits of the underlying DFR case.)
The situation being unresolved, US Airways filed a Declaratory Judgment Action in Federal court in Phoenix in 2011 to resolve its liability, if any, in the seniority dispute. In the case, US Airways states that it is neutral on the seniority dispute, but wishes to ensure that it cannot be held liable to either side depending on the outcome. The Judge in that case rules that USAPA CAN pursue a non-Nicolau seniority regime, provided it is supported by a LEGITIMATE UNION PURPOSE. She also does NOT offer US Airways any protection from liability. Therefore, US Airways has appealed this ruling to the Ninth Circuit, where the matter pends today.
Enter the AA merger. AOL's attorney suggests the MOU is a ratified contract (or at least a path to one), making the dispute in the Addington case - as set aside by the Ninth - "ripe". AOL's position is that any non-Nicolau list damages the West pilots and therefore insists that the Nicolau list be the list used to integrate with the AA pilots. If USAPA, APA, and the Company don't use it, AOL intends to seek a restraining order enjoining the integration process (but not the merger, they say) until the courts rule. USAPA says this is nonsense and intends to pursue a DOH solution to the East/West scenario (and with APA, per its Constitution). The Company just wants to avoid being sued by anyone, no matter how the list comes down.
If you're not confused yet, you haven't been paying enough attention!"
