Toothy Grin
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- Mar 31, 2008
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Really?
- Thread starter never give up
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signals
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Not quite...ha-ha!
But a certain pilot isn't saying much, which leads me to believe that you're banging your head against the wall and fighting a losing battle because your words fall on deaf ears
Since everything is speculation, IF a merger with, say US, does happen, then we'll see who's signals get crossed.
If the MB Amendment comes into play, then it is my opinion that it came into play to just stop the perceived wrong by an individual group.
But a certain pilot isn't saying much, which leads me to believe that you're banging your head against the wall and fighting a losing battle because your words fall on deaf ears
Since everything is speculation, IF a merger with, say US, does happen, then we'll see who's signals get crossed.
If the MB Amendment comes into play, then it is my opinion that it came into play to just stop the perceived wrong by an individual group.
MCI transplant
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- Jun 4, 2003
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"By an indivdual group ?"------ Don't try and be cute! We all know who that "group" is!!!!----- It's the same group that instagated the law in the first place!!!
Merger vs acquisition? Assets are acquired, then merged. AA mangt. testified in front of the US Senate that TWA-AA was a merger. Remember: Two great Airlines-One Great Future. Bk vs bk. TWA went into bk as a means of abrogating the Ichan ticket deal 9and employee contracts)and was orchestrated by AA. AA is in full fledged bk and USAIR is licking its chops. Another move I believe jointly orchestrated by AA and USAIR. A merger committee was formed (for the f/as) and when initial reaction was not "staple", John Ward dismantled the committee. There was never any education of the membership nor was there a membership vote. 4000 merged into 20,000 (over all of the bases) would not have made a ripple. It was basically the same ratio as the TWA-OZ acquisition (and yes we gave DOH, I was a union rep on strike at the time) and none of us ever were unhappy with that decision. john Ward was in the first class of "B" scale AA f/as (better known as the "killer B's") and he vowed to "get back" at the senior women that agreed to B scale. It was perceived that TWA was the epitome of a "senior women" airline. In reality, 1/4 were senior, 1/4 were very junior and 1/2 were scattered throughout the remaining seniorities. He even went so far as to give up furlough pay because he was mad that AA gave us pay seniority. It is reported that he said, "Now they will get exactly what they deserve, nothing". Of equally interesting note is the fact that something unprecedented in labor history was allowed to occur. 1.The original seniority integration agreement was changed. 2. AA f/as were allowed to give up their AA metal certification and actually became TW metal certified (out of seniority order) and were allowed to fly out of STL only on TWA planes. They were considered TWA LLC f/as for a period of time while ALL former TWA f/as were furloughed. I feel they should have gone to the bottom of the seniority list when the transferred back to AA metal (but that's another story). Then comes the issue of dues. The former TWA f/as actually voted in elections and union votes. During the RPA vote there were only 3 YES votes from STL. We also demanded fair accounting and a national election as well as a base election were over-turned due to voting irregularities. can't beat 'em, lets make it impossible for them to vote and make it financially devastating so they will NEVER be able to vote. Those still furloughed will owe thousands and during this time have not been able to attend meetings, access the APFA website, vote, hold office but are still required to pay full dues. For what? This pretty much explains WHY the former TWA f/as remain a tad fussy.
As for the comment about our POS airline: We had the youngest fleet in the industry. Even with money shortages we were able to secure JD Powers Awards and consistently had on-time arrivals and lack of customer complaints in the top 3 of the DOT stats. Our bk was orchestrated by 2 greedy CEOs and no matter how you try to spin it, AA is in bk now. No one will ever know what the influx of post 9-11 money would have done for our bottom line. We were "blessed" not to be hit that fateful day. I believe that you would have seen a acquisition/merger of TW-AW and Alaska Air and the current makeup of combined airlines would have been completely different.
Let the games begin. Can't wait to read the final chapter,
As for the comment about our POS airline: We had the youngest fleet in the industry. Even with money shortages we were able to secure JD Powers Awards and consistently had on-time arrivals and lack of customer complaints in the top 3 of the DOT stats. Our bk was orchestrated by 2 greedy CEOs and no matter how you try to spin it, AA is in bk now. No one will ever know what the influx of post 9-11 money would have done for our bottom line. We were "blessed" not to be hit that fateful day. I believe that you would have seen a acquisition/merger of TW-AW and Alaska Air and the current makeup of combined airlines would have been completely different.
Let the games begin. Can't wait to read the final chapter,
La Li Lu Le Lo
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- May 29, 2010
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It was my understanding that TWA was bought and that it was not a merger.
If it was bought:
If it was bought then the TWA people fared well. They got to keep their company seniority, vacation time, and a hell of a raise. They should indeed have been stapled.
If it was a merger:
If it was a merger then the TWA employees got royaly screwed. They should indeed have been merged in with the current seniority list.
So was it a buy out or a merger?
I honestly don't know.
A n"AA"tive AA employee
If it was bought:
If it was bought then the TWA people fared well. They got to keep their company seniority, vacation time, and a hell of a raise. They should indeed have been stapled.
If it was a merger:
If it was a merger then the TWA employees got royaly screwed. They should indeed have been merged in with the current seniority list.
So was it a buy out or a merger?
I honestly don't know.
A n"AA"tive AA employee
Wow, such logic. USAIR just PURCHASED some of AA's debt. Changes the playing field, no? This will be a PURCHASE of AA by USAIR.
Carty testified (under oath) in front of Congress and called it a merger. The only people not wanting to accept that term are those trying to justify something so very wrong. The current APFA President and the APFA attorney have both publicly stated that the staple job was wrong. I don't think there would still be people furloughed if there had been an equitable merging of seniority. The APFA would have had incentive to bring back the f/as. Since it is just "us", who cares? I have a sneaky suspicion that this will all be rectified at some point in this bk or near future.
Carty testified (under oath) in front of Congress and called it a merger. The only people not wanting to accept that term are those trying to justify something so very wrong. The current APFA President and the APFA attorney have both publicly stated that the staple job was wrong. I don't think there would still be people furloughed if there had been an equitable merging of seniority. The APFA would have had incentive to bring back the f/as. Since it is just "us", who cares? I have a sneaky suspicion that this will all be rectified at some point in this bk or near future.
Hopeful
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- Dec 21, 2002
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OOOOOHHHHHHH....USAIR purchased $630,000 worth...Oh my God, they're gonna get priority of creditors owed millions....
http://phoenixbankru...a-creditor.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2001/mar/13/business/fi-37055
http://money.cnn.com/2001/01/10/deals/amr_twa/
La Li Lu Le Lo
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- May 29, 2010
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Comparing TWA to US Air is a bit of a stretch. US Air purchased SOME debt (a small amount). AMR (through merger or acquisition) got all aircraft, all gates, and all the TWA debt. ALL TWA DEBT, which was substantial. I don't see that TWA really brought much to the table after you figure the cost of changing the aircraft over, absorbing all the new employees at a topped out rate (including non skilled labor), and taking on TWA's massive debt load.
TWA was close to liquidating. A merger to me suggest both airlines have something to offer to make the combined airline stronger. What did TWA (that was ready to liquidate mind you) have to offer AMR? The aircraft were junk (or at least the base mechanics paint that picture). The only thing they got were gates and a maintenance base they did not need. When you figure the debt load it hardly seems worth it.
I don't understand how a wealthy company (AMR) taking over a company that is about to liquidate (TWA) and carries a MASSIVE debt load could be considered a merger.
What did TWA offer AMR that would justify the debt AMR absorbed?
I think we can all agree that AA's merger/acquisition of TWA was a mistake.
I would also like to state my shop has 10 TWA out of 98 total employees (a little over 10 percent). Many TWA have gone to other shops (stores mostly) or the number would be higher. I work with ex TWA employees everyday and have heard their opinion about seniority stapling several times over the years. This is a subject I hear about very frequently. It is not just the flight attendants. One thing they all agree on however is that Carl Icahn financially broke TWA (Karabu agreement) before AMR ever entered the picture.
TWA was close to liquidating. A merger to me suggest both airlines have something to offer to make the combined airline stronger. What did TWA (that was ready to liquidate mind you) have to offer AMR? The aircraft were junk (or at least the base mechanics paint that picture). The only thing they got were gates and a maintenance base they did not need. When you figure the debt load it hardly seems worth it.
I don't understand how a wealthy company (AMR) taking over a company that is about to liquidate (TWA) and carries a MASSIVE debt load could be considered a merger.
What did TWA offer AMR that would justify the debt AMR absorbed?
I think we can all agree that AA's merger/acquisition of TWA was a mistake.
I would also like to state my shop has 10 TWA out of 98 total employees (a little over 10 percent). Many TWA have gone to other shops (stores mostly) or the number would be higher. I work with ex TWA employees everyday and have heard their opinion about seniority stapling several times over the years. This is a subject I hear about very frequently. It is not just the flight attendants. One thing they all agree on however is that Carl Icahn financially broke TWA (Karabu agreement) before AMR ever entered the picture.
Wealthy company? AA is in bk and wants to gut all labor agreements. We had the newest planes in the industry. AA CHOSE not to keep them. We came ready to fly so revenue was always available. About to liquidate? Not quite but good try. Many of the financial decisions made in the last 18months were orchestrated by Bill Compton and Don Carty to have TWA in the "best" position for acquisition. We will have to agree to disagree and as I said before, lets see how AA comes out in this cluster fluff.
Yes AA was a wealthy company. TWA had been through BK several times and was in it again. The I.A.M. gave up all their rights in order for the deal to go through. Not sure about the FA Union. This was a very unhealthy airline that was bought lock stock and barrell by a healthy one. This brought on the mess we are in today. You want to talk about who got screwed?
signals
Veteran
I think you misunderstood. By 'individual group', I meant the group that feels they'll be screwed in the event of a merger. Period.
The TWA bankruptcy judge agreed that TWA was on the verge of liquidation as TWA lacked the cash to make its upcoming debt payments and had no source of funds. Believe what you want, but the judge found that TWA was in danger of liquidation and no evidence to the contrary was offered.
TWA had young aircraft, but incompatible (except for the MD-80s) engines on all its Boeing aircraft (P&W on the 757s and 763s). AA's announced plan when it bought the TWA assets (it was not a merger) was to order replacements for the 757s and 763s (it actually ordered the 15 763s to replace the TWA 763s, and they were delivered in 2002-03). September 11 got in the way of ordering the new 757s.
What did AA get from TWA? A huge loyal customer base and several billion dollars of annual revenue. With AA's superior credit rating, AA was able to renegotiate many of TWA's aircraft leases (particularly on the MD-80s). Recall that Mayor Daley insisted that ORD would never be reconfigured, and in the Summer of 2000, ORD was maxed out and had no more capacity, so part of AA's plan was that STL would give AA connection capacity so that ORD could focus more on O&D from CHI and less on connections. STL even built a new runway to give STL lots of extra capacity. Not too long after September 11, Mayor Daley reversed course and admitted that ORD needed reconfigured with parallel runways, and that's happening right now. Once completed, ORD's runway capacity will again be larger than the demand at ORD.
I don't agree at all. For one thing, TWA provided revenue that might have helped AA survive Sept 11 in better shape than UA or US. Additionally, the TWA employees provided furlough cushion for the nAAtive employees. If TWA had found a way to survive until Sept 11, and got a guaranteed loan (like HP did), the cutbacks at AA might have been much deeper than they were (thanks to the furlough cushion provided by the newly acquired TWA employees).
Sure, in hindsight, it might have been a poor use of money in early 2001, but very few saw September 11 on the horizon. UA was going to grow with its purchase of US and AA needed to keep up (or so the conventional wisdom went).
Congressional testimony is irrelevant to the question of merger or asset purchase. Legally, AA bought assets from the bankrupt TWA estate. There was no merger between any AMR entity and TWA. All AA did was buy certain assets from a bankrupt company. I'm not certain that anyone from AA used the term "merger" to describe the asset purchase. Gotta link?
No problem, because I do know, and it was an asset purchase. AA offered several hundred million (I think it ended up being about $742 milion or so) and assumed a lot of debt and got most of TWA's assets. Some former TWA employees want to insist that it was a merger, but from a legal standpoint, it was an asset purchase in which the acquirer (AA) offered employment to nearly all TWA employees.
TWA was not merged into AA. AA purchased assets from the bankrupt TWA estate. Congressional testimony? Irrelevant. As pointed out above, the bankruptcy judge found that TWA was days away from a fatal cash shortage, and thus approved AA's offer to buy its assets.
La Li Lu Le Lo
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- May 29, 2010
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ORD runways being built today? It is 11 years later.
To me the end result of the debate is irrelevant as my future employment with AMR is inevitability coming to an end. I have already began making plans for my future beyond AMR.
The statements I made were not to defend a position, only to communicate my understanding of what took place.
Things that point to this being an acquisition.
1.After AMR merged/acquired TWA they quickly formed a new company called TWA Airlines LLC.
2. TWA declared chapter 11 bankruptcy the day after it agreed to the merger/acquisition.
3. A 500 million dollar payment was made, and AMR assumed TWA's liabilities.
I wish to ill will toward any ex TWA employee. As stated my days are numbered so I have no vested interest in seeing them "stapled". I do not believe however that AMR/TWA was a merger.
To me the end result of the debate is irrelevant as my future employment with AMR is inevitability coming to an end. I have already began making plans for my future beyond AMR.
The statements I made were not to defend a position, only to communicate my understanding of what took place.
Things that point to this being an acquisition.
1.After AMR merged/acquired TWA they quickly formed a new company called TWA Airlines LLC.
2. TWA declared chapter 11 bankruptcy the day after it agreed to the merger/acquisition.
3. A 500 million dollar payment was made, and AMR assumed TWA's liabilities.
I wish to ill will toward any ex TWA employee. As stated my days are numbered so I have no vested interest in seeing them "stapled". I do not believe however that AMR/TWA was a merger.
La Li Lu Le Lo
Veteran
- May 29, 2010
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