Passengers Refusing to Board Flight To Munich?

[Dont call me Shirley]

I have been told that 767 parts reside in CLT and PHX (¿porque PHX? no se.)

Also, the POS A&W maintenance program called SPECTRE does not notify anyone until the day an MEL is due,

Spectre is to Merlin as QIK is to Sabre?

 

[Fixed Wing]

You are 100% correct.

I rest my case.....this quote from the guy who was there working the flight.

To answer Piney....yes! you are 100% correct !
If the culture was more employee friendly, if the company was serious about boosting moral and took the contract talks seriously, If the seniority arbitration award was not unfair, if the top management of this company did not continously line their pockets on the backs of labor....

Then I would bet a paycheck that the captain of the MUC flight would have departed with the MEL.
The captain had a choice, he chose to drag the 200 passengers into it.

You all can bash me with the type rating, not knowing the fuel load, wide body single engine taxi bs.
You will not convince me that on this particular flight there wasn't some shenanigans going on regarding the crew timing out. Period.

And you are right Piney....ultimately in the end it's management's fault.

 

[Phoenix]

I rest my case.....this quote from the guy who was there working the flight.

To answer Piney....yes! you are 100% correct !
If the culture was more employee friendly, if the company was serious about boosting moral and took the contract talks seriously, If the seniority arbitration award was not unfair, if the top management of this company did not continously line their pockets on the backs of labor....

Then I would bet a paycheck that the captain of the MUC flight would have departed with the MEL.
The captain had a choice, he chose to drag the 200 passengers into it.

You all can bash me with the type rating, not knowing the fuel load, wide body single engine taxi bs.
You will not convince me that on this particular flight there wasn't some shenanigans going on regarding the crew timing out. Period.

And you are right Piney....ultimately in the end it's management's fault.

Its easy to be the captain when you are banging on your Dell laptop at Starbuck's sucking down a double mocha latte with a scone on the side and Jefferson Airplane piped in your ears off your ipod. 🙄

 

[ussnark]

You forgot to mention that the crew needed to be towed to the gate after the engine wouldn't start.
He refused to taxi with one engine.

I don't know which gate he was at, but, single engine taxi at max gross weight on a hot day is problematic for a number of reasons, any one of which would cause damage to men and equipment (high thrust significantly increases FOD probability, blowing men and equipment around as well as being rather difficult to steer in tight quarters). Sounds to me like a sound idea, getting a tow.

You forgot to mention that after the valve was changed the crew did the engine start (because passengers were on board) but took an unusual length of time to go through their before start checklist.

What is an "unusual" amount of time, for you?

Then the 1300 lb uplift? c'mon 1300 lbs? thats 200 gallons!

Several possibilities. Dispatcher was likely getting wx reports from earlier flights and may have added that amount. Someone may have noticed an extended line for takeoff and felt they would be waiting quite a while, in line. I can think of several other safety related reasons that might not seem like "real reasons" to a non-pilot.

Ok the fueler caused a part of the lengthy delay but in the end....the flight crew was hell bent on not flying to Munich that evening.

That you cannot say with a straight face. I would never take a two engine aircraft, at night, over the pond, with questionable restart capabilities. As is typical, were there other MELs on the aircraft? I have seen the front of the logbook covered and some on the backside, with those itty bitty little stickers we have now, making any decision about safety a convoluted discussion.

Piney you can say that it's the captain's call and you are right but the fact is the FAA, GE and Boeing says it is safe to fly an aircraft with this MEL. I guess they didn't check with this Captain before they wrote it.

I don't think that was a fair assessment on your part. No pilot has to take any MEL'd aircraft. It is in the FARs. An MEL is issued presuming a host of other factors, all positive. Should any be negative, the captain has the final say on whether he is comfortable with the situation. That is what experience does for one.

Of course I am getting this info secondhand as I was not there so perhaps upallnight can clarify.

So, using second hand information, you can determine the mindset of a person? Wow!

 

[dariencc]

I rest my case.....this quote from the guy who was there working the flight.

Wow. A mechanic "working" the flight weighs in on the crew's fuel, MEL, and taxi decisions, as well as their checklist proficiency. I guess that settles it, huh?

He didn't "work" the flight all the way to Munich, I can assure you of that. The three pilots were preparing to work that flight, and those issues were discussed among themselves and the dispatcher, not the guy changing the start valve.

You all can bash me with the type rating, not knowing the fuel load, wide body single engine taxi bs.
You will not convince me that on this particular flight there wasn't some shenanigans going on regarding the crew timing out. Period.

I bashed you over the type rating, fuel, load, and what you call "wide body single engine taxi bs" only because you deserved to be bashed, and still do. You are completely ignorant of so much that your speculation really means very little. Please be advised that the pilots and dispatchers involved in these decisions don't care what your opinion is.

 

[UpAllNight]

Wow. A mechanic "working" the flight weighs in on the crew's fuel, MEL, and taxi decisions, as well as their checklist proficiency. I guess that settles it, huh?

He didn't "work" the flight all the way to Munich, I can assure you of that. The three pilots were preparing to work that flight, and those issues were discussed among themselves and the dispatcher, not the guy changing the start valve.
I bashed you over the type rating, fuel, load, and what you call "wide body single engine taxi bs" only because you deserved to be bashed, and still do. You are completely ignorant of so much that your speculation really means very little. Please be advised that the pilots and dispatchers involved in these decisions don't care what your opinion is.

No I didn't work the flight all the way to MUC, but i can make a right turn on the left engine. I taxi 767's all the time. And not to bash the pilot, but he was burning time. AND to ask for 1300 lbs of fuel was bs. He was prepared to go with the fuel load he had if the #1 engine would started as camanded. For the record, when he returned to the gate, I..... started the engine with no start valve fault, with the 1st officer watching and he still wouldn't take the plane. So we MEL'd it and he wouldn't take it the plane. I qoute "if i'm over the north atlantic and have a flame out, I son't want to lose one of my opptions for starting the engine". We had the valbve change before the MEL was instated, and then removed( it took longer to remove the MEL than it did to change it).

The entire affair ws a comdey of errors and mulitple rumors floating all around. It ws a very interesting night to say the least.

All I can say is Maintainace did EVERYTHING it could possibly do and the flight was still delayed 10 hours. You make the call

 

[UpAllNight]

Sorry that would be a right turn on the right engine, and yes it can be done. also start valve mel's are NOT ETOPS restrictive

 

[ussnark]

Sorry that would be a right turn on the right engine, and yes it can be done. also start valve mel's are NOT ETOPS restrictive

Do you taxi an aircraft at maximum gross weight? Ever? Do you have any idea what that is like? It is way different between 250k and 350k.

also, MELs provide a minimum level of safety. Was there moderate turbulence forecast for the route, that might give someone pause with no effective re-start capability on one engine? Were there any other MELs?

Until you know more, your judgement is based more on emotion than facts. I do not second-guess a mechanic's work. I would ask the same professional courtesy of you.

Handshake?

 

[flybynite]

Oh, my dear. This is happening almost on a daily basis. We have MTC isssues with the A330 every day. They need to be pulled off the line and and get the white glove treatment.

 

[drjochen]

To start out: I am just a regular passenger.

Our flight PHL-MUC 3 weeks ago was delayed by 6 hours due to technical issues with the plane inbound from Stockholm and we finally left at 2 am. The way US Airways reservations, the check-in counter, and the gate personnel handled the situation was a joke and an insult to any intelligent human being (lies, no information, then false information,...). Honesty would go a long way....

Anyway, we will fly have to back with US 707 this Saturday from MUC to PHL and the flight has been delayed on a regular basis by several hours (e.g., today, its delayed by only ~ 4 hours). We have been on this flight ~ 10 times in the past 5 years and never had such delays.

My family is very very concerned about the safety of this flight equipment to the point where my wife does not even want to board the flight. She is already scared to death at this point. Are these old 767s safe? Should we get on board?

Btw., this was the first time we flew USAirways Envoy class and its truly pathetic. The seats were broken (2 footrests and in 1 seat entertainment system), filthy (...and I mean really filthy), no drinking water during the flight, I had to hold 3 glasses during landing that were never picked up, not a single smile from the flight attendants, etc.

 

[ALCARLOS]

My family is very very concerned about the safety of this flight equipment to the point where my wife does not even want to board the flight. She is already scared to death at this point. Are these old 767s safe? Should we get on board?

Safety should not be a problem...... Its just the east pilots staging an unauthorized job action since they have a lower pay scale than the west pilots. Since the east pilots agreeded to their contract, they can't admit what they are doing. The planes are safe but look like hell.

The FAs are cought in the middle, so they are grumpy

 

[UpAllNight]

Do you taxi an aircraft at maximum gross weight? Ever? Do you have any idea what that is like? It is way different between 250k and 350k.

also, MELs provide a minimum level of safety. Was there moderate turbulence forecast for the route, that might give someone pause with no effective re-start capability on one engine? Were there any other MELs?

Until you know more, your judgement is based more on emotion than facts. I do not second-guess a mechanic's work. I would ask the same professional courtesy of you.

Handshake?

Handshake. I'm really not trying to start an agrument, just blowing off a little steam.

 

[ussnark]

Safety should not be a problem...... Its just the east pilots staging an unauthorized job action since they have a lower pay scale than the west pilots. Since the east pilots agreeded to their contract, they can't admit what they are doing. The planes are safe but look like hell.

The FAs are cought in the middle, so they are grumpy

The flights are safe only because the pilots are demanding the company keep them safe.

The intent of an MEL is to allow a company time to gather their resources to properly fix a problem. USairways regularly violates that intent by stretching each MEL to it's legal limit, then changing a part just to extend the MEL another cycle. If they cannot fix the problem I have seen them get a last minute extensions several times. I find it quite suspicious that they can get a waiver within a few minutes on a late Saturday night. Perhaps, next time, I will require a fax with signature for follow-up.

I want the logbook concession. What a joke the new logbook is. Instead of being able to research a problem for several weeks, aircrewmembers are limited to several days at a time (yeah, there are that many write-ups). US now has two logbooks on each plane, one for airworthiness issues and one for the cabin. Most cannot even find the cabin log, much less fix anything in it.

I have seen aircraft flying around for weeks with bleed valves not shutting air supply, in one case, enough bleed leaked to run a pack. Improperly fixed in each case, not because of the mechanic, but because of MOC. Missing panels for weeks (in one case I bet USAir spent more in gas than it would have cost to replace the panel.) Planes sitting for six hours and overworked mechanics regularly get to the plane just prior to scheduled push.

A giant joke is notifying MOC of write-ups via ACARs or radio. The mechanics never get the word.

Yes, safety reports were filed each time.......to no avail.

I could go on but, unless the employees revolt, US will never see better.

 

[jerseyfinn]

OK, I'm just an ordinary pax who flies TA and like anyone, am concerned both about safety and the airline delivering the product it dangled in front of you to get your money. And the original question asked is a simple one. What happens on the MUC flight to upset 50 pax into not flying? It takes a lot of reading to piece together something which imparts an impression if not an answer to the question.

This thread feels about as chaotic as that MUC cabin must have been as the hours tick by. Yet we've got pax weighing in like Wall Street flying experts, and employees tossing cowpies over the presumed pecking order between employee groups and between the barbs, jabs, and snipes also some useful information from which one can finally get a picuture of what happened.

Throw the darts if you wish, but it sounds to me as if a reasonable answer to the OP is that a mechanical issue sets in motion a cascade of events as the FC must grapple with additional procedural issues while remaining focused upon the operational factors which ensure the safest flying conditions. Throw in the fact that the FC may also be engaging in a little stink finger of their own choosing as these events work through their minds and different employee stratas begin to rub against each other creating more friction. Add to that mix a near universal dislike/disdain for the head-up-the-ass management which is indeed grinding a once proud east side down to nothing and you at least know what the theme music is playing in the background throughout this entire mess. Then there's the PHL factor which is the necessary catalyst to take a request for 1300lbs of additional fuel and turn this into the MUC flight's Rubicon when Rocky is nowhere to be found with his fuel truck, and when he wakes up, doesn't know how to operate his equipment ( and I assume that Rocky is not a US employee but rather simply a home-grown Philly moron ). But this the point at which the cow tips over and no body is leaving the US cow pasture any time soon -- enjoy the smell pax!

That's right! There were pax in the back! Forgot about them. Haven't heard anything about what those paying customers were or were not told during this time. I'll be optimistic ( based upon the FAs we've met ) and I'll assume that they try to put on a good face. But were the pilots keeping the pax informed? Any thought to what goes on in the back after an hour becomes two and then three? Or was everyone too busy fighting in the sandbox?

Are those 50 pax all folks who are sick and tired of how Tempe has lied, deceived, and slowly destroys an airline? Or are some of them scared sh!tless if they perceive friction in the cockpit or deception on the PA system?

Granted the recipie for this sort of mess originates with Tempe, it's management style, it's operational decisions, and it's total lack of character. But MUC plays out far and distant from those Tempe clowns. So yes, the ultimate problem is Tempe. But employees have a hand in how these things play out. I'm very appreciative of the candor shared here in this thread. Fortunately, my wife and I weren't on this flight ( we do fly lots of TA ). I would never want to experience what those MUC pax do. I'm a patient guy ( though like most, I don't always show it ). But if I got a whiff of employee stink finger after a 10 hour delay, then I'd have to seriously determine what kind of relationship I'd maintain with that or any airline. Here's hoping that everyone involved did all they possibly could. In any case, hats off to those folks who tried. What happened to the pax?

Barry

 

[drjochen]

The flights are safe only because the pilots are demanding the company keep them safe.

The intent of an MEL is to allow a company time to gather their resources to properly fix a problem. USairways regularly violates that intent by stretching each MEL to it's legal limit, then changing a part just to extend the MEL another cycle. If they cannot fix the problem I have seen them get a last minute extensions several times. I find it quite suspicious that they can get a waiver within a few minutes on a late Saturday night. Perhaps, next time, I will require a fax with signature for follow-up.

I want the logbook concession. What a joke the new logbook is. Instead of being able to research a problem for several weeks, aircrewmembers are limited to several days at a time (yeah, there are that many write-ups). US now has two logbooks on each plane, one for airworthiness issues and one for the cabin. Most cannot even find the cabin log, much less fix anything in it.

I have seen aircraft flying around for weeks with bleed valves not shutting air supply, in one case, enough bleed leaked to run a pack. Improperly fixed in each case, not because of the mechanic, but because of MOC. Missing panels for weeks (in one case I bet USAir spent more in gas than it would have cost to replace the panel.) Planes sitting for six hours and overworked mechanics regularly get to the plane just prior to scheduled push.

A giant joke is notifying MOC of write-ups via ACARs or radio. The mechanics never get the word.

Yes, safety reports were filed each time.......to no avail.

I could go on but, unless the employees revolt, US will never see better.

Now you got me really scared..........