Passengers Refusing to Board Flight To Munich?

[ussnark]

But if I got a whiff of employee stink finger after a 10 hour delay, then I'd have to seriously determine what kind of relationship I'd maintain with that or any airline.

Barry,

What planet are you on?

What is employee stink finger?

Citing distance, you apparently have ruled out employer stink finger?

When one is given a hammer by management, then asked to screw something together, it does get rather messy.

 

[UpAllNight]

OK, I'm just an ordinary pax who flies TA and like anyone, am concerned both about safety and the airline delivering the product it dangled in front of you to get your money. And the original question asked is a simple one. What happens on the MUC flight to upset 50 pax into not flying? It takes a lot of reading to piece together something which imparts an impression if not an answer to the question.

This thread feels about as chaotic as that MUC cabin must have been as the hours tick by. Yet we've got pax weighing in like Wall Street flying experts, and employees tossing cowpies over the presumed pecking order between employee groups and between the barbs, jabs, and snipes also some useful information from which one can finally get a picuture of what happened.

Throw the darts if you wish, but it sounds to me as if a reasonable answer to the OP is that a mechanical issue sets in motion a cascade of events as the FC must grapple with additional procedural issues while remaining focused upon the operational factors which ensure the safest flying conditions. Throw in the fact that the FC may also be engaging in a little stink finger of their own choosing as these events work through their minds and different employee stratas begin to rub against each other creating more friction. Add to that mix a near universal dislike/disdain for the head-up-the-ass management which is indeed grinding a once proud east side down to nothing and you at least know what the theme music is playing in the background throughout this entire mess. Then there's the PHL factor which is the necessary catalyst to take a request for 1300lbs of additional fuel and turn this into the MUC flight's Rubicon when Rocky is nowhere to be found with his fuel truck, and when he wakes up, doesn't know how to operate his equipment ( and I assume that Rocky is not a US employee but rather simply a home-grown Philly moron ). But this the point at which the cow tips over and no body is leaving the US cow pasture any time soon -- enjoy the smell pax!

That's right! There were pax in the back! Forgot about them. Haven't heard anything about what those paying customers were or were not told during this time. I'll be optimistic ( based upon the FAs we've met ) and I'll assume that they try to put on a good face. But were the pilots keeping the pax informed? Any thought to what goes on in the back after an hour becomes two and then three? Or was everyone too busy fighting in the sandbox?

Are those 50 pax all folks who are sick and tired of how Tempe has lied, deceived, and slowly destroys an airline? Or are some of them scared sh!tless if they perceive friction in the cockpit or deception on the PA system?

Granted the recipie for this sort of mess originates with Tempe, it's management style, it's operational decisions, and it's total lack of character. But MUC plays out far and distant from those Tempe clowns. So yes, the ultimate problem is Tempe. But employees have a hand in how these things play out. I'm very appreciative of the candor shared here in this thread. Fortunately, my wife and I weren't on this flight ( we do fly lots of TA ). I would never want to experience what those MUC pax do. I'm a patient guy ( though like most, I don't always show it ). But if I got a whiff of employee stink finger after a 10 hour delay, then I'd have to seriously determine what kind of relationship I'd maintain with that or any airline. Here's hoping that everyone involved did all they possibly could. In any case, hats off to those folks who tried. What happened to the pax?

Barry

Bravo, Jersey, Bravo!

 

[brown]

You forgot to mention that the crew needed to be towed to the gate after the engine wouldn't start.
He refused to taxi with one engine.
You forgot to mention that after the valve was changed the crew did the engine start (because passengers were on board) but took an unusual length of time to go through their before start checklist. Then the 1300 lb uplift? c'mon 1300 lbs? thats 200 gallons!

Ok the fueler caused a part of the lengthy delay but in the end....the flight crew was hell bent on not flying to Munich that evening.

Piney you can say that it's the captain's call and you are right but the fact is the FAA, GE and Boeing says it is safe to fly an aircraft with this MEL. I guess they didn't check with this Captain before they wrote it.

I've been in the business long enough to smell a rat. (or overly conservative captain as you called it) I've also been in the business long enough to never, ever comprimise safety or suggest anyone should.
Yes the performance speaks for it's self and I wasn't generalizing about it. ....it sucks, ....however I was only being specific on this topic and this particular flight.

Of course I am getting this info secondhand as I was not there so perhaps upallnight can clarify.

Agree!! I agree 100%. If it is in the MEL and the fed's have approved it as well as GE and USAirways Capt should be terminated. PERIOD

 

[Phoenix]

OK, I'm just an ordinary pax...

That's right! There were pax in the back! Forgot about them. Haven't heard anything about what those paying customers were or were not told during this time. I'll be optimistic ( based upon the FAs we've met ) and I'll assume that they try to put on a good face. But were the pilots keeping the pax informed? Any thought to what goes on in the back after an hour becomes two and then three? Or was everyone too busy fighting in the sandbox?...

Hey sometimes I'm and ordinary pax and I think airlines stink sometimes too. Please vent. Please call the DOT. Please fly on the airline the sucks the least.

As for what happened to the PAX, they arrived safely at their destination as soon as USAir, weather, FARs, ICAO rules, etc. etc. permitted, under the authority of the one who opperated the flight. The mentality that results from "fighting in the sandbox" has been a causul factor in many an aircraft accident reports. Safety becomes an issue when various employee groups panic about ontime service inspite of events and circumstances that narrow or eliminate the margin of safety. That is why the captain is paid to be above all the irrational emotion and make the call about how to operate safely. The PAX is fortunate that the Captain has a vested interest in his own safety, so the PAX gets to sorta have safety vicariously.

It works out nicely that way. You can read about plenty of young pilots who didn't take that to heart and are now memorialized in the text books that teach young pilots how to become old pilots.

 

[N924PS]

Agree!! I agree 100%. If it is in the MEL and the fed's have approved it as well as GE and USAirways Capt should be terminated. PERIOD

What is safe isn't always legal and what is legal is not always safe.

Sometimes 25-30 years experience and thousands of transatlantic crossings trump what a MEL Book or manufacturer has to say about a given situation.

And as another poster eloquently pointed out, it's the Captain's ass, literally and figuratively on the pointy end of the jet.

I sure hope you are not a pilot. If you are , I wouldn't want to be on your aircraft with a mindset like yours.

 

[Pi brat]

Agree!! I agree 100%. If it is in the MEL and the fed's have approved it as well as GE and USAirways Capt should be terminated. PERIOD

You are kidding, right? Please tell me you are!

 

[ussnark]

Agree!! I agree 100%. If it is in the MEL and the fed's have approved it as well as GE and USAirways Capt should be terminated. PERIOD

The MELs have a list of pre-conditions that are rarely real-time. They presume ideal conditions that only an experienced pilot can apply to real life in a safe and efficient manner. It actually says that in the applicable FAR.

Read and educate yourself. Something new for a right-wing richard, but just try it once. You should find it empowering.

 

[brown]

Hey sometimes I'm and ordinary pax and I think airlines stink sometimes too. Please vent. Please call the DOT. Please fly on the airline the sucks the least.

As for what happened to the PAX, they arrived safely at their destination as soon as USAir, weather, FARs, ICAO rules, etc. etc. permitted, under the authority of the one who opperated the flight. The mentality that results from "fighting in the sandbox" has been a causul factor in many an aircraft accident reports. Safety becomes an issue when various employee groups panic about ontime service inspite of events and circumstances that narrow or eliminate the margin of safety. That is why the captain is paid to be above all the irrational emotion and make the call about how to operate safely. The PAX is fortunate that the Captain has a vested interest in his own safety, so the PAX gets to sorta have safety vicariously.

It works out nicely that way. You can read about plenty of young pilots who didn't take that to heart and are now memorialized in the text books that teach young pilots how to become old pilots.

Yeah...A start valve sure sounds like a "safety of flight item", truth is company needs to start disciplining these bozos who are disgruntled with the contract (THEY AGREED ON) "that would be pilots" or as we call it "systems monitors", so please spare us from the Captain making the call, the job isn't as glamouras as you are obsessively convinced that it is.

 

[john john]

truth is company needs to start disciplining these bozos who are disgruntled with the contract (THEY AGREED ON) "that would be pilots" or as we call it "systems monitors", so please spare us from the Captain making the call, the job isn't as glamouras as you are obsessively convinced that it is.

This is typical UPS part-timer management mentality.

 

[Pi brat]

Yeah...A start valve sure sounds like a "safety of flight item", truth is company needs to start disciplining these bozos who are disgruntled with the contract (THEY AGREED ON) "that would be pilots" or as we call it "systems monitors", so please spare us from the Captain making the call, the job isn't as glamouras as you are obsessively convinced that it is.

Not much in this business is as glamouras as it used to be, whatever glamouras is. If you weren't there, you don't know exactly what was going on, do you? Back to MELs. In previous posts we discussed cabin temps. The MEL of the A/C I fly would allow me to operate the airplane without an APU, pretty simple right? What if there is no ground air available, it's 97 degrees and 90 % humidity. Should I take the A/C no matter what? Point being, the MEL cannot plan for every situation. It is up to the captain to decide.

 

[brown]

This is typical UPS part-timer management mentality.

UPS? Ha? Actually no.

 

[brown]

I take exception to the remarks. I'm not a pilot, I'm just a dopey customer. When I plunk down my XXX number of dollars I want to feel secure that I have a Pilot and First Officer whose only concern is the safet of the aircraft and customers on board.

Did you ever stop to think that if the company actually possessed the skill set to operate an international carrier that many of the morale issues would resolve themselves. Thereby eliminating the need to discipline thos alledged "bozos". ANYONE who has the skill set required to fly a B767 across a large ocean is by definition NOT a bozo.

Let's assume the pilot was dogging it for a moment. When you look at the situation ponder this? Giving away litterally BILLIONS in concessions through two BK's and watching the carrier teeter on the brink of extinction for close to three years, why now would they finally get to this point? Could it be the attitudes of all of that frightening "talent" in Tempe?

When employees "Act Out" towards their customers and managers it's not the employee that's to blame, NO the blame falls squarely at the feet of management. Managements job is to manage, motivate, counsel, discipline, monitor, inspect and direct employees to ensure the product is consistant and profitable. If all you engage in is discipline you've only addressed 1/7th of the issue and the underlying issues that caused the discipline remain unaddressed.

I for one am not knowledgable enough about flight operations to even hazzard a guess as to what took place that night. Sometimes in life you have to make a decision on short notice. When you do, you open yourself up to second guessing and a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

I'll not be joining in the second guessing game.

Well as much as you are obsessively on this board with about a 90% bitching about operations I don't want to hear any more of your whining about our company delays, mechanicals etc.. Truth is these guys signed a contract and are whining about it so like a child are acting out.

Obviously as you stated you have no technical sense of what was going on...so with that said you might want to move on to another topic.....Somehow I don't think you can

 

[brown]

Not much in this business is as glamouras as it used to be, whatever glamouras is. If you weren't there, you don't know exactly what was going on, do you? Back to MELs. In previous posts we discussed cabin temps. The MEL of the A/C I fly would allow me to operate the airplane without an APU, pretty simple right? What if there is no ground air available, it's 97 degrees and 90 % humidity. Should I take the A/C no matter what? Point being, the MEL cannot plan for every situation. It is up to the captain to decide.

A lot of what you said holds merit and I respect your post, however does common sense ever play a factor?

 

[Phoenix]

I take exception to the remarks. I'm not a pilot, I'm just a dopey customer. When I plunk down my XXX number of dollars I want to feel secure that I have a Pilot and First Officer whose only concern is the safet of the aircraft and customers on board.

Those who would form a lynching mob without even knowing the facts would take away your confidence in a safe operation, ostensibly (and ironically) in the interest of service.

Lets suppose for a moment that a pilot is operating within his authority as the Captain according to the FARs and many other regulations, but doesn't exercise his authority according to your liking. What do you suggest is the way to get him to operate the way you would? Did the Pilot operate within the FARS? Why does he have rules?. for safety.. but he can always break rules, if safety of flight is the basis to break them.

Mobs on the other hand are not inconvenienced by rules and think they know better. Their basis for usurping the Captain's authority is a perceived hope of improving service. So if the company decides to punish the captain because of some supposed evil motive then every pilot will immediately understand that FARs are not for saftey (and as such can only be broken for safety of flight) but are rather for performance (and can be, even must be, broken to improve performance).

Recipe for disaster.

 

[brown]

Well since US Airways is in the bottom 10% of the performance stats according to the DOT the 90% whining & bitc%ing seems about right to me!!

It's not my fault that your Management can't operate an airline!

I didn't call Secretary Peters and ask her to alter the DOT stats and she didn't say "Sure Piney Bob anything for you"!!! So that leaves Dougweiser and Scooter doesn't it.?

If they can't effectively,

A. Run an airline

B. Negotiate successfully with pilots to avoid shenanigans.

c. Create a positive work environment.

Then the BOD needs to find someone who can!

You know it's not just me saying these things. It's the DOT, Most of the Media, Long term Customers and Employees So a thought has occurred to me. Either all those people are misguided and patently wrong and you're the only one who has figured this out OR it's the other way round.

Far be it for me to offer a suggestion as to the correct answer.

I agree with you it is horrible, that being said if you were the one that had to be somewhere at a certain time and crew was playing fu-- fu-- with the MEL's, Dispatch, Maint etc you would be pretty piss-- off correct? Truth is Tempe is a mess, however we are also causing a bunch of this sh-- by not flying when we should. There are a bunch of tweaked guys who signed this contract and now are piss-- off.