Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

[Leonidas]

Tell me... Why would a United pilot let a west pilot that was hired in 98 fly Capt on a 767.

I predict the opposite. With UA in the majority they well never let the unjust Nic award be implemented. If the Nic award is ALPA's standard policy for seniority then UA will never let it happen. ALPA will also be decertified at UA.

I think the west is in for a big wakeup in reality if there is a US/UA merger.

wopr21

Yeah the ual guys want your furloughed pilots to be captains of their heavies, man you guys are delusional.

 

[P51Pilot]

Yeah the ual guys want your furloughed pilots to be captains of their heavies, man you guys are delusional.

The point he is making is that by way of Nicalou, much "younger" AWA pilots could slot ahead of older UAL pilots with more longevity and hinder UAL pilots career progression. If you think they would go for that, there is a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

 

[prechilill]

The point he is making is that by way of Nicalou, much "younger" AWA pilots could slot ahead of older UAL pilots with more longevity and hinder UAL pilots career progression. If you think they would go for that, there is a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

UAL has offered recall of their furloughed pilots and have been doing a little hiring, so the misguided reasoning about Nicolau disfavoring the UAL pilots is completely nuts. If anything, the DOH integration would radically favor the career expectations of a certain aged pilot group only- the UAL and AWA pilots wouldn't get anything out of it. Last I checked UAL had '99 hires flying in the left seat, just like AWA. Where are the '99 hires at USAir east? Besides, I know you probably do not want to remember your colossal screw ups your own MEC is responsible for, but the DOH cramdown you guys were attempting in 2000 backfired on you all when Dubinsky basically shut UAL down resulting in UAL leaving USAir to impending bankruptcy after they walked away from the table. You guys on the east truly are delusional in your own history.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Should anything ever remotely close to this rumor being discussed come to be reality just remember easties, ...it is democracy not tyranny! Right?

 

[767jetz]

Tell me... Why would a United pilot let a west pilot that was hired in 98 fly Capt on a 767.

I predict the opposite. With UA in the majority they well never let the unjust Nic award be implemented.

wopr21

You are definitely delusional. The UA MEC knows all about the East aspirations. They also know the pitfalls of binding arbitration. And our merger committee, MEC, and membership all consider DOH to be DOA. It is a non-starter. Slotting, relative seniority, and career expectations are all considered fair and equitable. And the "biggie," career expectations, is different in each merger. The Nicolau is considered fair in the context of your last merger. It will be similar in any merger with UA. Trust me when I say there is no love for USAPA or the "angry F/O club" at United. I believe it is you who will be in for a rude awakening.

If a pilot holds the seniority on their respective property to fly as a 757 captain, he will have a seniority number to reflects that (regardless of years of service at his respective airline of origin). If a pilot has a seniority at his respective airline to fly as a junior 737 F/O, he will have a seniority number to reflect that. If he has the seniority (juniority) to be furloughed or close to the bottom, he will have a seniority number to reflect that.

Then there will be adjustments to account for equipment types, just like Nicolau gave the top 500 or so exclusive rights to the A330 since AWA didn't have any. Obviously with 117 widebodies as opposed to your 19, the adjustment would be much larger. Longevity will obviously pay a role in things like pay and maybe even vacation and pass riding, but not in fleet or seat.

Any new flying would be shared, either equally, or proportionately based on the size of each group. Obviously there would be a no-bump/no flush provision. Also, there would probably be a certain time frame (5 years?) where pilots would be fenced into their airline's domiciles. And pay and work rules would be equal and hopefully improved for all.

Interestingly, these are exactly the same types of seniority arrangements proposed at DL/NW and between CO/UA and are mostly agreed upon as fair among the pilot groups and the MEC's (with minor adjustments here and there.) Why then are the 2700 USAPA pilots the only ones who see it differently from the other 20,000+ pilots involved in this consolidation game? This has all been debated endlessly for decades. And a US/US merger is not imminent considering that CO/UA makes much more sense. So rehashing it on this forum is senseless. The bottom line is that any dealing with USAPA will never end up in mutual agreement. It will be decided in the courts.

But do yourselves a favor and relinquish the fantasy that you will find a sympathetic ear for your cause at United. (Or AA for that matter.)

Good luck to all...

 

[767jetz]

The point he is making is that by way of Nicalou, much "younger" AWA pilots could slot ahead of older UAL pilots with more longevity and hinder UAL pilots career progression. If you think they would go for that, there is a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

Actually, you have no idea how wrong you are. No one has any grief about a pilot with less longevity holding a higher seat, if that is the seat he came to the table with. In your example, a 98 hire AWA pilot flying a 757 was at the top of his career at his airline, with the exception of longevity raises. Assuming the 767, 777, and 747 were allocated to UA pilots, he would stay there, right where he expected to be. Eventually somewhere down the road, when all the UA 757 pilots had an opportunity to move up to the 777, he might eventually have the opportunity to move into a 777 ahead of a UA pilot hired after him. That's just the way it goes. But then again, the seat he is vacating would provide an opportunity for a UA pilot to move up as well.

You see, a middle seniority 767 F/O at UA can also hold a junior 737 Cap position at some domiciles. But there is no way any 737 Captain will suddenly become a 777 or 747 captain just because of his longevity. It will just not happen.

Also, the international operation that UA brings to the table, in a combined airline creates opportunities to add flying due to the additional feed, which would be shared by all, and creates an opportunity for US Airways pilots (East and West) not available to them absent a merger. So you guys have to start looking past your nose and your DOH to understand the macro environment.

Of course this whole discussion is academic considering that UA will be merging with CO.

 

[bigbusdrvr]

You are definitely delusional. The UA MEC knows all about the East aspirations. They also know the pitfalls of binding arbitration. And our merger committee, MEC, and membership all consider DOH to be DOA. It is a non-starter. Slotting, relative seniority, and career expectations are all considered fair and equitable. And the "biggie," career expectations, is different in each merger. The Nicolau is considered fair in the context of your last merger. It will be similar in any merger with UA. Trust me when I say there is no love for USAPA or the "angry F/O club" at United. I believe it is you who will be in for a rude awakening.

If a pilot holds the seniority on their respective property to fly as a 757 captain, he will have a seniority number to reflects that (regardless of years of service at his respective airline of origin). If a pilot has a seniority at his respective airline to fly as a junior 737 F/O, he will have a seniority number to reflect that. If he has the seniority (juniority) to be furloughed or close to the bottom, he will have a seniority number to reflect that.

Then there will be adjustments to account for equipment types, just like Nicolau gave the top 500 or so exclusive rights to the A330 since AWA didn't have any. Obviously with 117 widebodies as opposed to your 19, the adjustment would be much larger. Longevity will obviously pay a role in things like pay and maybe even vacation and pass riding, but not in fleet or seat.

Any new flying would be shared, either equally, or proportionately based on the size of each group. Obviously there would be a no-bump/no flush provision. Also, there would probably be a certain time frame (5 years?) where pilots would be fenced into their airline's domiciles. And pay and work rules would be equal and hopefully improved for all.

Interestingly, these are exactly the same types of seniority arrangements proposed at DL/NW and between CO/UA and are mostly agreed upon as fair among the pilot groups and the MEC's (with minor adjustments here and there.) Why then are the 2700 USAPA pilots the only ones who see it differently from the other 20,000+ pilots involved in this consolidation game? This has all been debated endlessly for decades. And a US/US merger is not imminent considering that CO/UA makes much more sense. So rehashing it on this forum is senseless. The bottom line is that any dealing with USAPA will never end up in mutual agreement. It will be decided in the courts.

But do yourselves a favor and relinquish the fantasy that you will find a sympathetic ear for your cause at United. (Or AA for that matter.)

Good luck to all...

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Actually jetz, you bring up valid seniority points...however, since USAirways pilots are represented by a different union than UNITED pilots...
Should a merger, buyout, somebody save someone...call it whatever. I believe the Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's will be folowed per law, signed by our President not to long ago....

What has been a decidedly big factor in the past in AM LPP intergrations??? (Hint: D of ____)

 

[ableoneable]

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Actually jetz, you bring up valid seniority points...however, since USAirways pilots are represented by a different union than UNITED pilots...
Should a merger, buyout, somebody save someone...call it whatever. I believe the Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's will be folowed per law, signed by our President not to long ago....

What has been a decidedly big factor in the past in AM LPP intergrations??? (Hint: D of ____).

Actually, you are misinformed about not one but two things.

Allegheny-Mohawk and the new law.

Not surprising since Seham et all. have been cherry picking items from both to present to USAPA leadership.

You will find that the new law will favor a ruling along the lines of the Nicolau award.

You will also discover that should a merger occur the nicolau list is the list that will be used to integrate USAir with AirXX

 

[Tiger 1050]

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Actually jetz, you bring up valid seniority points...however, since USAirways pilots are represented by a different union than UNITED pilots...
Should a merger, buyout, somebody save someone...call it whatever. I believe the Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's will be folowed per law, signed by our President not to long ago....

What has been a decidedly big factor in the past in AM LPP intergrations??? (Hint: D of ____)

Wow! I don't recall reading DOH anywhere as the method of integration in the new law. But I do recall reading where it specifically states that if the two sides cannot come to an agreement then BINDING ARBITRATION will be the path taken. Funny, isn't that exactly what US/AWA did? But it doesn't work for the east in the current case. Absolutely amazing amounts of hubris from the east once again.

 

[767jetz]

You will find that the new law will favor a ruling along the lines of the Nicolau award.

You will also discover that should a merger occur the nicolau list is the list that will be used to integrate USAir with AirXX

I agree with this, so I don't understand where the argument is. Nicolau was a slotting arrangement with considerations for career expectations, widebody flying, etc. One just needs to read the details behind the award. And since binding arbitration is the law, Nicolau will stand and another similar award will be the outcome of the next USAirways/XXX or UA/XXX integration. The only exception would be a UA/CO merger where both parties mutually agree on integration before arbitration becomes necessary.

 

[bigbusdrvr]

Wow! I don't recall reading DOH anywhere as the method of integration in the new law. But I do recall reading where it specifically states that if the two sides cannot come to an agreement then BINDING ARBITRATION will be the path taken. Funny, isn't that exactly what US/AWA did? But it doesn't work for the east in the current case. Absolutely amazing amounts of hubris from the east once again.

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Wow! I dont recall reading DOH anywhere as the method of inergration in th new law either!! But then again AM LPP's are not new. As I asked, What has been a "Decidedly Big Factor" (note I did not say it was the law) in previous seniority intergrations , using AM LPP's?

Hint: Its a question.....

Also I believe the Lists to be used by an Arbitrator should one be needed will be produced by the respective unions representing each pilot group. Am I wrong? Assuming I'm right (just for the moment) Why would USAPA use the Nic award if another was Negotiated?

 

[767jetz]

Whoopps!

Ableoneable, I just noticed that you were quoting and responding to bigbusdrvr.

So I guess we do agree. My bad

 

[ableoneable]

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Assuming I'm right (just for the moment) Why would USAPA use the Nic award if another was Negotiated?

Because they don't have a choice in the matter. USAPA inherits all the previous agreements to which the Nicolau award is part.

If you don't think the Nicolau list is the list that will be used then there are two choices in the event of another merger;

A. USAPA attempts to present two separate lists to be integrated with a third, United or whomever.

B. USAPA attempts to present a DOH list of their own making. Because there is already an arbitrated list I would estimate that it would be relatively easy for the west to obtain injunctive relief.

 

[BoeingBoy]

As I asked, What has been a "Decidedly Big Factor" (note I did not say it was the law) in previous seniority intergrations , using AM LPP's?

I keep seeing this so just out of curiosity, how many pilot seniority integrations have used only the A/M LPP's and when were they decided?

Jim

 

[ableoneable]

I keep seeing this so just out of curiosity, how many pilot seniority integrations have used only the A/M LPP's and when were they decided?

Jim

The world wonders.....