Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26
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ableoneable
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Not sure what "his transcript" refers to but assuming it is the ruling that tossed portions of the MDA case, I have read it and the east has grossly misrepresented what the ruling meant.
Welcome to the family! Just a heads up, this thread has the most "right" people of any thread. Mama
ableoneable
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Okay, got it.
They were active pilots but not on the USAirways list. They were flying under a different CBA, they could not bid for mainline equipment and most importantly the equipment they were flying was not equipment that was contemplated being flown under the merged seniority list. They brought no flying with them so they were, as far as the integration was concerned, not employed, i.e. furloughed.
ALPA national bent over backward to favor the east pilot group. Had they believed that the MDA claim had merit that would have given national a rational to re-visit the Nicolau award. Even they thought it was a case without merit.
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EastUS
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"WWIII will commence"? (Ah yes..yet another serious little "toughie"/civilian-only/ZERO Clue/pwecious widdle bah-wah baby/etc.. ranting about "War"..Given that we're already, supposedly in "All out Warfare" as "declared" by the west..I can only assume that, per 767jetz, that it'll become global thermonuclear war/WWIII/etc if UAL's ever concerned....kindly just GROW UP little children..you merely make "innocent" little fools of yourselves, and, by extension, all pilots everywhere) ..In any case;...but, but,...don't you have every possible contingency already figured out, and fully planned for under Alpo?. 🙄 As for any issues regarding "predictable"?..I'll let your postings record stand on it's merits as to what you can actually predict.
I'm personally, quite content to see how things unfold in reality.
P51Pilot put a reasonable perspective on the likely UAL response to Nic fever = "The point he is making is that by way of Nicalau, much "younger" AWA pilots could slot ahead of older UAL pilots with more longevity and hinder UAL pilots career progression. If you think they would go for that, there is a bridge in Brooklyn for sale." Not everyone at UAL is an FO with your limited seniority Jetz...just an observation. Heck..I even know a few that are antiques like myself, and they, amazingly enough, do not agree with your supposed speaker for all of UAL BS. I'll spare you any quotes as to what they do indeed think of your postings as a kindness. You may well find this to be utterly astonishing, but; there's even sentiment that ex AWA folks shouldn't be unfairly placed ahead of even such fervent "believers" as yourself, nor ANY of the UAL fold... Why should they?...Due only to their being hired at AWA?, and thusly...well....just maybe...perhaps....not truly, magically special enough to warrant enhanced seniority over UAL folks, even those far junior to the gents who's opinions I reference...Whatta' concept.....elders seeking to protect their own.... 😉
We also joked about "seat-swaps", and I've no fantasies about jumping into any 777 or better should this happen...😉 Having said that: Your notions of universal UAL concern for the ex-AWA folks are equally, total fantasy.
sharktooth
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Actually, you missed it, by a mile.
Schultz
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OK, Then how did one of them (i.e furloughed) get elected as SEC/TRES of AAA council 41 PHL?
Schultz
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One last thought before I end my 1st day on this board, ( thanks for being patient with me ). ALPA could not have given any merit to the MDA case, if they had, it would have only strenghtened the MDA case. ($$$.$$$.$$$.$$)
Acting before a Federal judge ruled the list null and void would of only brought another DFR by the AWA pilots, thus they found themselves between a rock and a hard place.
As I said before only time will tell. AAA ALPA and ALPA National played loose with the rules, now it up to the courts to sort this mess out. Stay tuned and goodnight.
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EastUS
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Ah..well then..since Alpo Notional "believes"...well heck. Let's just stop right there. What those morons did was entirely then perceived to be in their own self-interest...period. Said complete nitwits never even dreamed that their BS would come back to roost in ANY form, and were simply doing what was thought best for themselves...as per usual. If you've no clue as to that..there's little more to discuss about it at this time.
"Even they thought it was a case without merit" will be a notion eventually tried in an actual court, by an actual Judge, and we'll all then know about the supposed merit. Schultz covers this nicely in his post = "ALPA could not have given any merit to the MDA case, if they had, it would have only strenghtened the MDA case. ($$$.$$$.$$$.$$)"..and, selling out line pilots wholesale for the benefit of Alpo's ease is hardly anything new.
I'll charitably assume fully humorous intent with your: "ALPA national bent over backward to favor the east pilot group." That truly is a good joke.
A more accurate statement would be as follows: Alpo Notional twisted itself around an axle, and into an full-blown pretzel...vainly trying to cover their own sorry arses.PHLfa88,Please Spare Us !! Ya'll Brought It Upon Yourselves!! Greed Is Greed!! Go USAPA!!
You should carefully re-read my post...
nostradamus
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Northwest pilots do not trust alpa. Delta pilots wipsaw before merger is complete.
A letter from the NWA MEC Chairman to the pilots of ALPA Councils 1, 20, 54, 55 & 74
TO: All Northwest Pilots
FROM: Dave Stevens
DATE: April 14, 2008
In the wake of the Delta-Northwest merger announcement today, I am writing to update the Northwest pilots. I will start by giving you the conclusion. Since January 2008, we have been working hard to put together a cooperative merger between the Northwest pilots, Delta management and the Delta pilot leadership. Agreement on the terms for a cooperative merger was in all stakeholders’ best interest inbetter times, with oil below $90 per barrel. With oil over $110 and an economy facing recession, and given the recent activities of the two managements and the Delta MEC, a merger with Delta may no longer be in the best interests of all Northwest stakeholders, including the Northwest pilot group. Northwest Airlines has strong standalone prospects given its cash position (best of the legacy carriers) and the flexibility of the NWA fleet, among other things. We are in a good position to weather the potential economic storm.
As a quick review, we started exploration of a cooperative merger with four key requirements from NWA MEC Resolution 08-01:
1. Creation of a profitable merged company with sufficient market presence and network scope to provide a stable platform for growth and sustainable profits;
2. Fair and equitable seniority list integration;
3. Collective bargaining agreement for the merged company with substantial improvements; and
4. Share in the equity of the merged company.
A cooperative merger provides a win-win formula for labor and management. By achieving a joint contract and seniority list prior to the effective date of the merger, revenue synergies and cost efficiencies are generated immediately (worth many hundreds of millions of dollars per year), and a portion of this economic upside could go to the pilot groups in the form of contract improvements and equity.
Since January, we have met with the Delta pilot leadership and Delta management in three extended efforts to accomplish the above requirements. By the end of the second session, we had accomplished requirements #3 and #4. However, we were unable to reach agreement on #2, an equitable seniority list, which is essential to accomplish #1. There was a great deal of collaborative effort expended by the Delta pilot leadership and Delta management to convince us to accept inequities in a seniority list in return for improved economics in a joint contract. As you know all too well, seniority is forever while economic provisions can be short lived.
The first two negotiations took place in New York City with oil below $90 per barrel. While we achieved agreement on a joint contract and equity and made progress on a seniority list, we did not achieve an equitable seniority list. The third negotiation took place in Washington, D.C., and while more progress was made on seniority, a seniority list agreement was not reached.
The seniority negotiations broke down over the Delta pilot leadership’s desire to include aircraft options, not just orders, in the seniority integration ratio. We were not willing to adjust the seniority integration ratio in favor of Delta pilots based on options, particularly when such options were unlikely to be exercised, other than as replacement aircraft, in the worsening economic environment. There were additional problems concerning calculation of the number of active pilots at each carrier and staffing assumptions for the future. The resulting difference in our respective positions on a ratio was substantial. The actual breakdown occurred when, in response to my suggestion that we both compromise and bring that to our respective MECs for their consideration, we were advised that the Delta pilot group could not move off their last ratio proposal.
As we had several times before, we then suggested to the Delta pilot leadership that we agree on expedited arbitration of the outstanding issues by a date certain. The result of an expedited arbitration would have been functionally the same as an immediate negotiated agreement since there would have been one seniority list and a joint contract in place on the transaction effective date.
By use of this process, much of the transaction risk would have been taken out of the merger and additional funds would have been generated to pay for one-time transition costs. In the uncertain world of airline economics, this was a key consideration. When two airlines merge, they attempt to realize the benefits of the created synergies before they run out of cash on hand to pay for the transition costs. In our current environment, there is no more money to borrow and airlines have few assets left to encumber.
Unfortunately, the Delta pilot leadership rejected arbitration, whether expedited or not, as a means to resolve the seniority list dispute. From that point, Delta management, the Delta pilot leadership and Northwest management chose a different path. NWA management proposed a traditional merger to Delta management. Then Delta management entered into bilateral negotiations with the representatives of the Delta MEC. The representatives of the Northwest pilots were excluded from the negotiations. Inexplicably, the Delta pilot leadership reversed its position. They are now willing to arbitrate the seniority list issues under ALPA merger policy. At the same time, they abandoned the joint pilot contract approach and have, instead, agreed to a Delta pilot contract amendment which will increase the pay and benefits for only Delta pilots. The Northwest pilots are excluded from the economic benefits. Both managements have cooperated in this change in course.
Yesterday we met with Delta CEO Anderson, President Bastian and EVP Campbell. At that meeting, we suggested that they delay the merger announcement and spend a short period negotiating a joint contract with a focus on their harmonization issues. This suggestion was rejected in favor of the plan they are currently pursuing. In explanation, they said we were out of time to negotiate prior to a merger announcement date (despite the fact they found two weeks to negotiate a deal with the Delta pilot leadership).
As a result, there will be seniority arbitration in a traditional merger process and it may take a long time. The Delta pilot leadership may choose not to cooperate on a joint contract for the benefit of the Northwest pilots while they seek an agreement on seniority that favors the Delta pilots.
Now we reach the question your MEC considered at its meeting yesterday – Should the pilots, employees and customers of Northwest support this merger as it is currently contemplated? The managements are betting on the merger models of old: Pay the employees of one group less and focus on lowering costs (instead of many of the revenue synergies that are far more likely to improve the bottom line); hope for cost savings going forward from employee division with no concern for the dis-synergies caused by labor dissatisfaction. The point has already been made to us by Delta management that they already have a “B scale†at Northwest, and that they will need to maintain it by phasing in harmonized wages. Mergers based on this model have never worked well, but trying to make this work at $110/bbl fuel, with a looming recession and no access to credit markets, is putting everything at risk.
One can only conclude that the Delta pilot leadership and Delta management have made an arrangement to try to disadvantage the Northwest pilots economically and with respect to our seniority. No pilot group is going to put up with this. No amount of money can sustain a carrier which creates this level of discord. This is a recipe for failure. Under these conditions, Northwest Airlines and all the stakeholders, including the pilots, other employees and customers, are better served by a standalone airline. Under these circumstances, it is Northwest’s best option, with its strong international and domestic route structure, a flexible fleet, an order book with fuel-efficient aircraft and the best cash position of any legacy carrier, to remain an independent carrier.
Your MEC reached this conclusion with reluctance. We were very close to concluding a truly cooperative merger which would have served the interests of everyone. We regret that an agreement was not obtained. However, the past is past. The Northwest pilot group now has to face a difficult future. As hard as a standalone course may be in these economic times, it is our judgment that it carries less risk than the merger path which now lies before us. For that reason, we will be turning our efforts to stopping this merger. Over the course of the next few weeks, we will be sending you more information on the MEC’s plans. Look for a road show schedule to be posted soon.
Fraternally and in Unity,
Dave Stevens
MEC Chairman
A letter from the NWA MEC Chairman to the pilots of ALPA Councils 1, 20, 54, 55 & 74
TO: All Northwest Pilots
FROM: Dave Stevens
DATE: April 14, 2008
In the wake of the Delta-Northwest merger announcement today, I am writing to update the Northwest pilots. I will start by giving you the conclusion. Since January 2008, we have been working hard to put together a cooperative merger between the Northwest pilots, Delta management and the Delta pilot leadership. Agreement on the terms for a cooperative merger was in all stakeholders’ best interest inbetter times, with oil below $90 per barrel. With oil over $110 and an economy facing recession, and given the recent activities of the two managements and the Delta MEC, a merger with Delta may no longer be in the best interests of all Northwest stakeholders, including the Northwest pilot group. Northwest Airlines has strong standalone prospects given its cash position (best of the legacy carriers) and the flexibility of the NWA fleet, among other things. We are in a good position to weather the potential economic storm.
As a quick review, we started exploration of a cooperative merger with four key requirements from NWA MEC Resolution 08-01:
1. Creation of a profitable merged company with sufficient market presence and network scope to provide a stable platform for growth and sustainable profits;
2. Fair and equitable seniority list integration;
3. Collective bargaining agreement for the merged company with substantial improvements; and
4. Share in the equity of the merged company.
A cooperative merger provides a win-win formula for labor and management. By achieving a joint contract and seniority list prior to the effective date of the merger, revenue synergies and cost efficiencies are generated immediately (worth many hundreds of millions of dollars per year), and a portion of this economic upside could go to the pilot groups in the form of contract improvements and equity.
Since January, we have met with the Delta pilot leadership and Delta management in three extended efforts to accomplish the above requirements. By the end of the second session, we had accomplished requirements #3 and #4. However, we were unable to reach agreement on #2, an equitable seniority list, which is essential to accomplish #1. There was a great deal of collaborative effort expended by the Delta pilot leadership and Delta management to convince us to accept inequities in a seniority list in return for improved economics in a joint contract. As you know all too well, seniority is forever while economic provisions can be short lived.
The first two negotiations took place in New York City with oil below $90 per barrel. While we achieved agreement on a joint contract and equity and made progress on a seniority list, we did not achieve an equitable seniority list. The third negotiation took place in Washington, D.C., and while more progress was made on seniority, a seniority list agreement was not reached.
The seniority negotiations broke down over the Delta pilot leadership’s desire to include aircraft options, not just orders, in the seniority integration ratio. We were not willing to adjust the seniority integration ratio in favor of Delta pilots based on options, particularly when such options were unlikely to be exercised, other than as replacement aircraft, in the worsening economic environment. There were additional problems concerning calculation of the number of active pilots at each carrier and staffing assumptions for the future. The resulting difference in our respective positions on a ratio was substantial. The actual breakdown occurred when, in response to my suggestion that we both compromise and bring that to our respective MECs for their consideration, we were advised that the Delta pilot group could not move off their last ratio proposal.
As we had several times before, we then suggested to the Delta pilot leadership that we agree on expedited arbitration of the outstanding issues by a date certain. The result of an expedited arbitration would have been functionally the same as an immediate negotiated agreement since there would have been one seniority list and a joint contract in place on the transaction effective date.
By use of this process, much of the transaction risk would have been taken out of the merger and additional funds would have been generated to pay for one-time transition costs. In the uncertain world of airline economics, this was a key consideration. When two airlines merge, they attempt to realize the benefits of the created synergies before they run out of cash on hand to pay for the transition costs. In our current environment, there is no more money to borrow and airlines have few assets left to encumber.
Unfortunately, the Delta pilot leadership rejected arbitration, whether expedited or not, as a means to resolve the seniority list dispute. From that point, Delta management, the Delta pilot leadership and Northwest management chose a different path. NWA management proposed a traditional merger to Delta management. Then Delta management entered into bilateral negotiations with the representatives of the Delta MEC. The representatives of the Northwest pilots were excluded from the negotiations. Inexplicably, the Delta pilot leadership reversed its position. They are now willing to arbitrate the seniority list issues under ALPA merger policy. At the same time, they abandoned the joint pilot contract approach and have, instead, agreed to a Delta pilot contract amendment which will increase the pay and benefits for only Delta pilots. The Northwest pilots are excluded from the economic benefits. Both managements have cooperated in this change in course.
Yesterday we met with Delta CEO Anderson, President Bastian and EVP Campbell. At that meeting, we suggested that they delay the merger announcement and spend a short period negotiating a joint contract with a focus on their harmonization issues. This suggestion was rejected in favor of the plan they are currently pursuing. In explanation, they said we were out of time to negotiate prior to a merger announcement date (despite the fact they found two weeks to negotiate a deal with the Delta pilot leadership).
As a result, there will be seniority arbitration in a traditional merger process and it may take a long time. The Delta pilot leadership may choose not to cooperate on a joint contract for the benefit of the Northwest pilots while they seek an agreement on seniority that favors the Delta pilots.
Now we reach the question your MEC considered at its meeting yesterday – Should the pilots, employees and customers of Northwest support this merger as it is currently contemplated? The managements are betting on the merger models of old: Pay the employees of one group less and focus on lowering costs (instead of many of the revenue synergies that are far more likely to improve the bottom line); hope for cost savings going forward from employee division with no concern for the dis-synergies caused by labor dissatisfaction. The point has already been made to us by Delta management that they already have a “B scale†at Northwest, and that they will need to maintain it by phasing in harmonized wages. Mergers based on this model have never worked well, but trying to make this work at $110/bbl fuel, with a looming recession and no access to credit markets, is putting everything at risk.
One can only conclude that the Delta pilot leadership and Delta management have made an arrangement to try to disadvantage the Northwest pilots economically and with respect to our seniority. No pilot group is going to put up with this. No amount of money can sustain a carrier which creates this level of discord. This is a recipe for failure. Under these conditions, Northwest Airlines and all the stakeholders, including the pilots, other employees and customers, are better served by a standalone airline. Under these circumstances, it is Northwest’s best option, with its strong international and domestic route structure, a flexible fleet, an order book with fuel-efficient aircraft and the best cash position of any legacy carrier, to remain an independent carrier.
Your MEC reached this conclusion with reluctance. We were very close to concluding a truly cooperative merger which would have served the interests of everyone. We regret that an agreement was not obtained. However, the past is past. The Northwest pilot group now has to face a difficult future. As hard as a standalone course may be in these economic times, it is our judgment that it carries less risk than the merger path which now lies before us. For that reason, we will be turning our efforts to stopping this merger. Over the course of the next few weeks, we will be sending you more information on the MEC’s plans. Look for a road show schedule to be posted soon.
Fraternally and in Unity,
Dave Stevens
MEC Chairman
E
EastUS
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"We regret that an agreement was not obtained. However, the past is past." I'll properly leave that as it is, simply by way of food for thought here.....
nostradamus
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No way alpa bent over backwards to favor the east group. The fact is that they tried to have the east group bend over forwards for them. The unanimous voting results of the east pilots proved that we would not allow ourselves to be the concubinage of alpa and its A group airlines.
Elevation
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How will the "new" list be any different? Oh year more guys (MDA) on the bottom.
E
EastUS
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Sigh..absolutely no doubt whatsoever. Just a thought though = As completely astonishing as it may seem to you personally; On a planet populated by admittedly, merely 6 billion or so other people..it's still NOT actually "ALL about YOU", and the very remote possibility even exists that legal processes may even acknowledge that at some level. 🙄
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