Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

[EastUS]

QUOTE (Leonidas @ Apr 24 2008, 03:30 PM)
"we were presented with the seniority list, we have accepted it, it transfers to a new union."

- Al H.

Company webcast 4/24/08. Available on the hub.

Not without a separately ratified merger agreement. Good luck with that.

Leo "conveniently" opted to leave out the follow up conversation by the gentlemen referenced, which was, verbatim = "We really think seniority should be talked about at the table." 🙄

 

[LSS]

"we were presented with the seniority list, we have accepted it, it transfers to a new union."

- Al H.

Company webcast 4/24/08. Available on the hub.

Tsk, tsk... Leonidas... I've listed to the webcast twice... and haven't heard what you're claiming... Maybe I missed it (twice) so give me the time at which this statement was made... As an example at 32.40 minutes into the webcast, a question was asked about the pilot's decertifying ALPO and would it hold up the integration... blah, blah, blah...

Proof of what you claim would erase all doubt, so help me out here with the time at which this statement was made by Al H (Al Hemenway?). Awaiting your response (but not holding my breath!)...

 

[EastUS]

Tsk, tsk... Leonidas... I've listed to the webcast twice... and haven't heard what you're claiming... Maybe I missed it (twice) so give us all the time at which this statement was made... As an example at 32.40 minutes into the webcast, a question was asked about the pilot's decertifying ALPO and would it hold up the integration... blah, blah, blah...

Proof of what you claim would erase all doubt, so help us all out here and back it up with the time at which this statement was made by Al H (Al Hemenway?). Awaiting your response (but not holding my breath!)...

It was said that they accepted the list, which would be passed to the union. This is hardly news, as Alpo passed it to the company, which in turn, must pass it to USAPA. "Accepted" is akin to received it in this case, and no other notions were forwarded by the company. Where it goes from there's not the company's slightest concern. ZERO in the conversation indicated the least interest in implementing it at all, much less against USAPA's wishes...ZERO. Leo just grabbed a fractional, and meaningless sound bite to try and make much of...nothing new there.

As noted above = "Leo "conveniently" opted to leave out the follow up conversation by the gentlemen referenced, which was, verbatim = "We really think seniority should be talked about at the table." So much for Nic being "Accepted".....

 

[nostradamus]

Alpa in all its wisdom wants the Aloha Airline pilots to go on strike. They have ceased operations, shut down, closed the door. But hell we, alpa, might as well use these pilots just one more time.

Alpa offered a job fair, Aloha Pilots Attend ALPA-Sponsored Job Fair "for their "brother and sister" pilots.
alpa shill Kit Darby, retired pilot from their A pilot group united, taught them how to fill out resumes and interview. john prater, president of alpa, the aloha pilots have been flying for 20 pus years plus. Your job, when you have time to drop your turkey leg that your eating, is to get them jobs. Point is oh portly one, you can teach a chimp to fill out a resume, these pilots have years of experience. You allowed mesa airlines Hawaii operations to undercut them and be called alpa pilots. Any new hires for Hawaii pilot jobs should be Aloha alpa pilots with date of hire or you do not have a leg to stand on, you only have the one you obviously torn off a cooked turkey too many times. Your lip service to Aloha pilots and others is only execeded by your lip service to food.


Mesa Airlines division in Hawaii, go airlines


Aloha Airlines go on strike

Hawaiian Pilots Respond to Aloha Airlines Shutdown Crocodile tears.

"On Friday, the Hawaiian MEC ratified a one-month letter of agreement for April that temporarily lifts contractual limits on how many hours HAL pilots can fly within the Hawaiian Islands. ALPA agreed to ease the work rules only if Aloha was forced to cancel service." This is a true alpa Hawaii pig roast eating off the Aloha pilots dead carcass.

 

[cactushead-west]

Its obvious the NIC not only satisfied the company requirements, but also fell into what they thought would be an uninconscionable result. DOH would not have been what Lakefield and Parker would deem fair, proven by what is documented in a letter to employees either just before or after the merger announcement. So, given that management not only accepted, but approve the NIC, I believe Hemmenway's comment of discussions had two meanings.

First, let's get back to the table.

Second, we will start from NIC and go from there.

In my view, that is all I want. Furlough protection. Set as many fences with restrictions as you want. When it comes to downsizing, nothing touches the accepted seniority list.

Ratified or not. It ain't going nowhere.

By the way I'm an FO.

It was said that they accepted the list, which would be passed to the union. This is hardly news, as Alpo passed it to the company, which in turn, must pass it to USAPA. "Accepted" is akin to received it in this case, and no other notions were forwarded by the company. Where it goes from there's not the company's slightest concern. ZERO in the conversation indicated the least interest in implementing it at all, much less against USAPA's wishes...ZERO. Leo just grabbed a fractional, and meaningless sound bite to try and make much of...nothing new there.

As noted above = "Leo "conveniently" opted to leave out the follow up conversation by the gentlemen referenced, which was, verbatim = "We really think seniority should be talked about at the table." So much for Nic being "Accepted".....

 

[prechilill]

It was said that they accepted the list, which would be passed to the union. This is hardly news, as Alpo passed it to the company, which in turn, must pass it to USAPA. "Accepted" is akin to received it in this case, and no other notions were forwarded by the company.

Well, maybe you can enlighten us with your stellar reasoning, but what else is the company needing to do with the Nicolau list other than accept or receive it?

It's done!

 

[Piedmont1984]

The whiner at the webcast notwithstanding (she was probably just acting her age), I am a little dissappointed that USAPA has not moved faster than they have. A forum should have been up and running by now. I feel out of the loop. The ALPA websites, both AAA and national, provided a good source of gauging mindset and sentiment, as well as exchanging, debating ideas between east and west - even though it was often a mudpit of mutual insults. Many honest positions were articulated. More importantly, real names were attached to the posts.

USAPA-East may very well end up crafting much of the language governing the SLI and contract without any West input or participation. Although many may view this as being perfectly fine, I'm concerned that in the long run it will come back to hurt our cause.

The merge took place over 2.5 years ago. A new representational election could come in less than 2 years or even sooner in the event of a merger - although I'm not sure about that. My point being that all we have gained could be in jeopardy before we realize.

USAPA has a very small window of opportunity to get it right. We all need to go back a year and ask ourselves; what decision could Nicolau have rendered that would have dissappointed both sides equally, but would have resulted in both factions shrugging it off and moving ahead together? What would the East have accepted as fair and equitable then - which we now feel we can overlook in the wake of our recent victory? This is not the time for a policy or mindset of superiority or payback.

Remember the Golden Rule.

 

[Bear96]

What would the East have accepted as fair and equitable then[?]

Seems like there is one clear answer to that question: Straight DOH, period, no discussion, consider no other options.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Seems like there is one clear answer to that question: Straight DOH, period, no discussion, consider no other options.

Again, what decision/award from the arbitrator would have been acceptable to the East, but short of straight DOH?

The biblical story of King Solomon threatening to split the infant comes to mind. The king meant only to draw out the true identity of the real mother. But in the case of this merger, splitting this baby right down the middle might have been the best thing Nicolau could have done.

FWIW.

 

[Bear96]

Again, what decision/award from the arbitrator would have been acceptable to the East, but short of straight DOH?

Again, there is no such decision/award.

The mediator and arbitrator all but begged the East to budge a little off its straight DOH. They refused. It is clear they would not be satsfied with anything other than straight DOH.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Again, there is no such decision/award.

The mediator and arbitrator all but begged the East to budge a little off its straight DOH. They refused. It is clear they would not be satsfied with anything other than straight DOH.

You are making my point for me. Never mind the east position or the west position. Never mind which side's position was more intransigent than the other. What was the aribitrator's final position. What was his final award. Answer? The Nic award, which in turn led to expanding and aggravating the divide between east and west and ultimately a change in the CBA.

Again, my question was, could he have done it differently? Could he have split the difference and brought both sides together rather than pushing them apart?

Answer, yes he could have, but he failed. In any case it's over now and the burden is on USAPA to get it right and without delay.

 

[EastUS]

Well, maybe you can enlighten us with your stellar reasoning, but what else is the company needing to do with the Nicolau list other than accept or receive it?

It's done!

Yep..."It's done!"..and has been since last May...and..ummm..we "Won't even get 200 cards!"/etc/ad nauseum. Don't let any even slight aspect of reality give you the least bit of a furrowed brow, nor suffer from finally gaining even the tiniest actual clue. You did, clearly by momentary oversight, leave out your usual "Ho Ho HO! St Nic is coming to town!"...and/or the standard barrage of anti-east people insults.

The union has the same need to accept the list that it does to accept anything else passed over the table = ZERO. I'll pass on forwarding otherwise excessive "stellar reasoning", since it falls on fully deaf ears in your case.

 

[Bear96]

You are making my point for me. Never mind the east position or the west position. Never mind which side's position was more intransigent than the other. What was the aribitrator's final position. What was his final award. Answer? The Nic award, which in turn led to expanding and aggravating the divide between east and west and ultimately a change in the CBA.

Again, my question was, could he have done it differently? Could he have split the difference and brought both sides together rather than pushing them apart?

Answer, yes he could have, but he failed. In any case it's over now and the burden is on USAPA to get it right and without delay.

Maybe I am not understanding your question. I think you are asking could the arbitrator have come up with a different decision, other than what he did and other than straight DOH, which would have satisfied the East. You appear to be answering that in the affirmative; I think the answer is No. The only way he would not have failed in the eyes of the East is to award straight DOH (which would have violated ALPA merger policy).

Yes the arbitrator could have done it differently (although not without being inconsistent with ALPA merger policy). But if he did it ANY OTHER WAY than straight DOH, East would not have been satisfied.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Maybe I am not understanding your question. I think you are asking could the arbitrator have come up with a different decision, other than what he did and other than straight DOH, which would have satisfied the East. You appear to be answering that in the affirmative; I think the answer is No. The only way he would not have failed in the eyes of the East is to award straight DOH (which would have violated ALPA merger policy).

Yes the arbitrator could have done it differently (although not without being inconsistent with ALPA merger policy). But if he did it ANY OTHER WAY than straight DOH, East would not have been satisfied.

Well, I would have. And I fly with F/O's every day who say the same thing. We would not have been happy - but we would have been satisfied. We would have accepted a true compromise and moved on. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[EastUS]

Yes the arbitrator could have done it differently (although not without being inconsistent with ALPA merger policy). But if he did it ANY OTHER WAY than straight DOH, East would not have been satisfied.

I won't even start on anything being "inconsistent with ALPA merger policy", since there would first have had to actually exist any "ALPA merger policy"..and I'm awed by anyone who actually has the ability to twist their minds sufficiently as to place the terms "consistent" and "ALPA" together on even the same page, much less sentence

"But if he did it ANY OTHER WAY than straight DOH, East would not have been satisfied." That's not the actual case, and is of no current concern regardless. You have no real idea of east thinking at that time. I'm certainly among the very staunchest supporters of DOH for many reasons, and I expected some slotting, but hardly wholesale, clinically insane, and utterly unacceptable rapine. As Piedmont states above: "We would have accepted a true compromise and moved on." NO ONE in the east ever wanted this group strife. That all makes no difference anymore. We simply are where we are, and must go forward from here.