Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

[cactushead-west]

Its obvious the NIC not only satisfied the company requirements, but also fell into what they thought would be an uninconscionable result. DOH would not have been what Lakefield and Parker would deem fair, proven by what is documented in a letter to employees either just before or after the merger announcement. So, given that management not only accepted, but approve the NIC, I believe Hemmenway's comment of discussions had two meanings.

First, let's get back to the table.

Second, we will start from NIC and go from there.

In my view, that is all I want. Furlough protection. Set as many fences with restrictions as you want. When it comes to downsizing, nothing touches the accepted seniority list.

Ratified or not. It ain't going nowhere.

By the way I'm an FO.

Management will not accept any list but the NIC. Why are we talking about changing it? There is nothing that can satisfy their intentions with regard to seniority implementation better than NIC. This is precisely the type of a ratio that they intended from the get go. It works for them and changing it will ONLY cost the company money.

Want the west to participate? Drop the bs about modifications.

Let's move forward together with the cards we've been handed. Any talk of doh will be dismissed as unachievable and will stagnate any pay/work rule improvements, just like Parker and company want.

 

[ableoneable]

I'd further like to explore the combined argument scenario:

1) You claim DFR because East is stealing from West (perhaps you can clarify) whilst not considering what protections may be in place to secure each sides "pre-merger" status. (seats,etc)

The most egregious lie perpetuated by USAPA is that DOH with conditions/restrictions actually provides protection to the west pilots.

The east group always presents a picture where USAir expands indefinitely, like the universe, and that DOH is fair because the west eventually inherits the wind.

The real picture is that oil is at $119/bbl and anyone who is not preparing for a downgrade and/or a furlough is living on fantasy island.

The only conditions and restrictions ever proposed by the east envisioned a twelve month window whereby the last pilot recalled would be the first furloughed. After that it goes DOH, which means west working pilots on the street and former east furloughees working.

Once, or rather if, recalls commence DOH is again controlling. Therefore once people in my seniority bracket have downgraded (and are now junior to former furloughees ) and thence gone to the street, when we come back we get to yank gear for pilots who were on the street when we were captains.

Quite a few of your brethren feel that this is perfectly fine because the west pilots should pay for the sacrifices of the east.

2) West guys are flipping a finger at even getting involved in USAPA at ANY level.

1) =Cry foul

2)= Refuse to participate in any process which may resolve differences.

Is that a fair summation of status?

We have absolutely no incentive to participate. In the event of a downturn we would do better under our current contract than we would under a joint DOH CBA.

The only participation we will be involved with will likely be in court.

 

[elixir]

The most egregious lie perpetuated by USAPA is that DOH with conditions/restrictions actually provides protection to the west pilots.

The east group always presents a picture where USAir expands indefinitely, like the universe, and that DOH is fair because the west eventually inherits the wind.

The real picture is that oil is at $119/bbl and anyone who is not preparing for a downgrade and/or a furlough is living on fantasy island.

The only conditions and restrictions ever proposed by the east envisioned a twelve month window whereby the last pilot recalled would be the first furloughed. After that it goes DOH, which means west working pilots on the street and former east furloughees working.

Once, or rather if, recalls commence DOH is again controlling. Therefore once people in my seniority bracket have downgraded (and are now junior to former furloughees ) and thence gone to the street, when we come back we get to yank gear for pilots who were on the street when we were captains.

Quite a few of your brethren feel that this is perfectly fine because the west pilots should pay for the sacrifices of the east.



We have absolutely no incentive to participate. In the event of a downturn we would do better under our current contract than we would under a joint DOH CBA.

The only participation we will be involved with will likely be in court.

Well, I hear you...but I don't agree with your tactics. I hate to say this, but I, for one, actually want both sides to find a place that both are comfortable and protected going forward...( I hate to say it because the Westies don't believe it)

I honestly think your tactic is flawed (litigation vs. negotiation)

You want to better position your case?

Get an LEC up and running, motion some revisions to policy and do some due diligence and work.

I think that some serious questions are going to be asked about what measures the West took to investigate their own remedies under every AVAILABLE means within their "union".

The only answer you will give is ..." NONE, we told them to "f" off..." ( not gonna help you)

Also, has everyone in PHX forgotten or somehow displaced that you were about 3 weeks from BK and furlough, as well as a concessionary contract BEFORE this merger?

It's been well documented, so don't go down " Denial Street".

And there we have it.

 

[EastUS]

Management will not accept any list but the NIC. There is nothing that can satisfy their intentions with regard to seniority implementation better than NIC. This is precisely the type of a ratio that they intended from the get go. It works for them and changing it will ONLY cost the company money.

I fear that's far enough of a drive deep into the very heart of Fantasyland. What's management's possible motivation for Nic-love? They, assuming the continued existence of US as an entity, certainly want a combined contract. Nic's in full violation of USAPA charter, and management will be negotiating via USAPA. No offence meant but: Are you even slightly serious?

"This is precisely the type of a ratio that they intended from the get go. It works for them and changing it will ONLY cost the company money." I hate to rudely break this to you but, the harsh fact is that management couldn't possibly care LESS how any list is set up...period. Have you residual fantasies yet stirring that presuppose some/ANY special concern from management for your group?...or the east?...or ANYBODY but management themselves? Words just fail me.

 

[ableoneable]

Well, I hear you...but I don't agree with your tactics. I hate to say this, but I, for one, actually want both sides to find a place that both are comfortable and protected going forward...( I hate to say it because the Westies don't believe it)

I honestly think your tactic is flawed (litigation vs. negotiation)

You want to better position your case?

Get an LEC up and running, motion some revisions to policy and due some due diligence and work.

An LEC with reps appointed by USAPA who, USAPA has made clear to the west pilots that they have contacted, must pledge allegiance to both USAPA and the concept of DOH in order to be affirmed as reps.

I think that some serious questions are going to be asked about what measures the West took to investigate their own remedies under every AVAILABLE means within their "union".

The only answer you will give is ..." NONE, we told them to "f" off..." ( not gonna help you)

Our reps were willing to negotiate during the time negations were going on but the east said DOH or die. After the award came out they wanted a do-over.

Even during the blue ribbon commissions, tea parties and square dances that occured after the award the west side was still willing to talk.

The east position; DOH as the only starting point, plus a guarantee that all upgrades for the next five years go to east pilots because the age 65 legislation was more unfair to the east than the west and this was just one more thing the west needed to pay for.

Also, has everyone in PHX forgotten or somehow displaced that you were about 3 weeks from BK and furlough, as well as a concessionary contract BEFORE this merger?

It's been well documented, so don't go down " Denial Street".

And there we have it.

Wow, it's been documented that AWA was three weeks from BK? You had better reference those documents.

What was actually said was that barring any future developments (i.e. other merger or buyout opportunities) AWA may have to seek protection under chapter 11. In twelve to twenty four months.

 

[elixir]

Nic is a document of theory. As such, it is a decision which was made but has been rendered unenforceable.

Never had one myself, but a restraining order works the same way: get within 50' of me and go to jail.

( Stay away, don't go to jail) The document is rendered moot.

Obviously, there is much dissention about this, the lawyers will slug it out.

Meanwhile, rather than participate in your representative agency to influence the changes you desire, you file a lawsuit, don't participate, and form AWAPA to counter USAPA on a legal front.

Sounds like Jonathan Ornstein is running things out there.

 

[ableoneable]

I fear that's far enough of a drive deep into the very heart of Fantasyland. What's management's possible motivation for Nic-love? They, assuming the continued existence of US as an entity, certainly want a combined contract. Nic's in full violation of USAPA charter, and management will be negotiating via USAPA. No offence meant but: Are you even slightly serious?

"This is precisely the type of a ratio that they intended from the get go. It works for them and changing it will ONLY cost the company money." I hate to rudely break this to you but, the harsh fact is that management couldn't possibly care LESS how any list is set up...period. Have you residual fantasies yet stirring that presuppose some/ANY special concern from management for your group?...or the east?...or ANYBODY but management themselves? Words just fail me.

Here I agree with you.

I don't think the company really cares one way or the other.


On the other hand they don't want to unnecessarily expose themselves to potential damages.

AWAPPA attorneys have already served notice to the company that should they enter into discussions regarding a change in the seniority list they will be hit with an injunction and a damages claim.

 

[prechilill]

Well, I hear you...but I don't agree with your tactics. I hate to say this, but I, for one, actually want both sides to find a place that both are comfortable and protected going forward...( I hate to say it because the Westies don't believe it)


Also, has everyone in PHX forgotten or somehow displaced that you were about 3 weeks from BK and furlough, as well as a concessionary contract BEFORE this merger?

It's been well documented, so don't go down " Denial Street".

And there we have it.

East pilots do not wish to negotiate. The only option you have left the west with is mulitple litigation claims against USAPA. These tactics ensure the continuation of our contract as well as LOA93 for you. Consumer spending is way down (reference UPS earnings call), personal debt and foreclosures are at record levels, oil at $116 and the dollar is crashing. Furloughs are on the way. DOH is DOA, just like it was with the arbitrator- it exists in the fiction of your minds only. Anything you give to the west pilots to vote on is DOA because any alternative is better than cooperating with you and your illigetimate union. Welcome to LOA 93 for another five or so years. How many did you say you have left before the big retirement?
Regarding the "3 weeks away from bankruptcy" take a look at AWA's last 10Q before the USAir rescue efforts were initiated... You can make up all the "facts" you want to help rationalize the irrational in your own mind, but your facts and reality do not match up.
The west looks forward to the opportunities USAPA has presented to us. Now that we are free of the controlling ALPA governance the west can finally take this street fight right back at you.

 

[elixir]

An LEC with reps appointed by USAPA who, USAPA has made clear to the west pilots that they have contacted, must pledge allegiance to both USAPA and the concept of DOH in order to be affirmed as reps.




Our reps were willing to negotiate during the time negations were going on but the east said DOH or die. After the award came out they wanted a do-over

Even during the blue ribbon commissions, tea parties and square dances that occured after the award the west side was still willing to talk.


The east position; DOH as the only starting point, plus a guarantee that all upgrades for the next five years go to east pilots because the age 65 legislation was more unfair to the east than the west and this was just one more thing the west needed to pay for.



Wow, it's been documented that AWA was three weeks from BK? You had better reference those documents.

What was actually said was that barring any future developments (i.e. other merger or buyout opportunities) AWA may have to seek protection under chapter 11. In twelve to twenty four months.

Firstly. I heard "our" CEO say that in person, so I guess you better ask him...he went on to say "hey, I'm the CEO, I think I would know what our status was at America West"

As to your other remarks, they are remarkably different from the recollections of people in attendance I've talked to, so I guess thats a stale-mate.

 

[EastUS]

Our reps were willing to negotiate during the time negations were going on but the east said DOH or die. After the award came out they wanted a do-over.

Even during the blue ribbon commissions, tea parties and square dances that occured after the award the west side was still willing to talk.

Amazingly enough..We heard exactly the opposite..not that any devout Alpoids on either side would misrepresent, or simply outtright lie about anything to their constituents 🙄

No matter. If you wish a fully adversarial relationship...OK. It hasn't played out well for you so far, but; the future's always unknown.

Have a good evening.

 

[prechilill]

Nic is a document of theory.

I am truly shocked anyone can voluntarily post such a comment, even if it is anonymous.

 

[ableoneable]

Nic is a document of theory. As such, it is a decision which was made but has been rendered uniforceable.

Actually you would be wrong on that one.

Both ALPA contracts, which USAPA is charged to enforce, contained in section one language which specifies that in the event of a merger ALPA merger policy will be followed. It was and the Nicolau list is the final result.

It traces its relevance to section one of each CBA.

I know USAPA has been feeding you guys BS for a long time but contact any attorney on your own and ask what the chances are that you can dispose of the list.

You won't like what you hear.

 

[ableoneable]

Amazingly enough..We heard exactly the opposite..not that any devout Alpoids on either side would misrepresent, or simply outtright lie about anything to their constituents 🙄

No matter. If you wish a fully adversarial relationship...OK. It hasn't played out well for you so far, but; the future's always unknown.

Have a good evening.

Have you personally talked to any of the people who were in the room?

 

[elixir]

East pilots do not wish to negotiate. The only option you have left the west with is mulitple litigation claims against USAPA. These tactics ensure the continuation of our contract as well as LOA93 for you. Consumer spending is way down (reference UPS earnings call), personal debt and foreclosures are at record levels, oil at $116 and the dollar is crashing. Furloughs are on the way. DOH is DOA, just like it was with the arbitrator- it exists in the fiction of your minds only. Anything you give to the west pilots to vote on is DOA because any alternative is better than cooperating with you and your illigetimate union. Welcome to LOA 93 for another five or so years. How many did you say you have left before the big retirement?
Regarding the "3 weeks away from bankruptcy" take a look at AWA's last 10Q before the USAir rescue efforts were initiated... You can make up all the "facts" you want to help rationalize the irrational in your own mind, but your facts and reality do not match up.
The west looks forward to the opportunities USAPA has presented to us. Now that we are free of the controlling ALPA governance the west can finally take this street fight right back at you.

I say again, "our" CEO indicated the direness of AWA..in person, in public, for all to see. Don't like it or believe it? Call him. I have no compulsion to produce any evidence thereof....he did it for me.

I gather that you have several suits lined up for transmittal to various parties: I suggest you hit the send button.

Just as your refusal to engage in JNC activities keeps the East in LOA93, it also keeps NIC suspended forever in Parker's drawer somewhere, and keeps your union CBL's in place....(that'd be USAPA)

As to "fighting" how stupid...but go ahead.

 

[prechilill]

As to "fighting" how stupid...but go ahead.

Agree completely. Unfortunately the only other option for us is to watch our group get furloughed if we agree to DOH. Even if furloughs do not come, why expose ourselves unnecessarily to that risk? You can believe the Nicolau award is just a "document in theory", but it is reality in the legal world. So I think you are bright enough to figure out why we are not going to cooperate with you in your illegitimate union endeavors.