Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

[EastUS]

I am truly shocked anyone can voluntarily post such a comment, even if it is anonymous.

Ummm "I am truly shocked"...says the poster of "Ho Ho Ho!, St Nic is coming to town!" and far too many other masterpieces of rational, and well-reasoned thought to properly note here 🙄

prechilill'"You can make up all the "facts" you want to help rationalize the irrational in your own mind, but your facts and reality do not match up." Yup, Case in point = prechilill': "USAPA will be lucky to get half of the east pilots' vote." "Anything you give to the west pilots to vote on is DOA because any alternative is better than cooperating with you and your illigetimate union." Yup yet again..and..umm..how many votes do you have available out there again?

prechilill'"DOH is DOA, just like it was with the arbitrator- it exists in the fiction of your minds only" Well...it also exists as part of the Union charter...just a thought.

I do think that this one's among my favorites though:

'prechilill: 'I understand emotions are high on the east after suffering years of stagnation and furloughs. Bradford epitomizes what the USAir pilot has become: a scraggly-haired, head full of gray with sunken eyes and drooping shoulders wearing three measly stripes. Who couldn't feel sorry for such a fellow? USAir has been a disaster for you guys.

Unfortunately for you, reality trumps fantasy, the law trumps emotion. On Thursday USAPA will be lucky to get half of the east pilots' vote. Time tempers all emotion, good and bad. Following Thursday, the healing may begin with your pilot group. I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group."

That last but a few days prior to the election, when we were all supposed to then engage in "healing" and "look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group."

Since that "We/Alpo WON!!..Take NO East prisoners!...High fives!/Ho Ho Ho!/etc" BS didn't wash..in that Alpo was defeated and dismissed, we have the "new" prechilil perspective on "healing" and "marching in step as a unified group"=

prechilil"Now that we are free of the controlling ALPA governance the west can finally take this street fight right back at you." Interesting..so..Alpo was actually a "bad thing" in your estimation then? :blink: and...umm..all the while you were ready to embrace the defeated east...so we could start "healing"...you were honestly just seeing this as some "street fight"? 😉

OK then..It finally now all "makes sense" from your collected, and consistent postings; Knock yourself out Sis 🙄

"prechilill'"You can make up all the "facts" you want to help rationalize the irrational in your own mind, but your facts and reality do not match up."..."Unfortunately for you, reality trumps fantasy,"

prechilill"Time tempers all emotion, good and bad. Following Thursday, the healing may begin with your pilot group. I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group." Great sentiments...too bad you that you don't have the tiniest bit of faith even in your very own words....sigh. True-Blue Alpoid moral and intellectual "flexibility" in action for all to see 😉

 

[EastUS]

You won't like what you hear.

Sorry, not the least bit impressed...We've been hearing far more dramatic, west-issued variations on that, and plentiful other themes for nearly a full year now. NONE of which have proved true....NONE. Let's all just see what really happens, and what the courts actually think about the issues. Shysters can found on every street corner...appropriately enough methinks.

As much as I'd much rather us try to work together on things...if you/the west insist on a purely antagonistic relationship...as some degree of a gambler; I'm far happier betting on the east's track record.

 

[Bear96]

I hate to rudely break this to you but, the harsh fact is that management couldn't possibly care LESS how any list is set up...period. Have you residual fantasies yet stirring that presuppose some/ANY special concern from management for your group?...or the east?...or ANYBODY but management themselves? Words just fail me.

Management may not "care" in an emotional sense, but it does have a contractual obligation (from the Transition Agreement and/or other merger-related agreements entered into with the pilots) to honor the seniority intergration arbitration award. So management definitely "cares" from a legal and financial sense.

 

[Bear96]

I know USAPA has been feeding you guys BS for a long time but contact any attorney on your own and ask what the chances are that you can dispose of the list.

It can't be "disposed" of as in immediately thrown out / ignored / pretend it never happened.

The interesting questions, however, are (1) going forward what can USAPA do to try to get rid of it, and (2) what will be the consequences of those attempts.

 

[luv2fly]

Interesting to think about what may happen to USAPA if a merger does occur with either AA or CO. Back to square one because I can gaurantee you neither of those are going to give US DOH.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Interesting to think about what may happen to USAPA if a merger does occur with either AA or CO. Back to square one because I can gaurantee you neither of those are going to give US DOH.

It will likely end up a federally arbitrated merging of the list as a result of the new federal legislation. The legislation makes the Allegheny-Mohawk protections part of the process. Pretty much all of previous arbitrations under A-M have gone DOH. Federal arbitrators are loathe to ignore precedent. I'll take my chances.

 

[767jetz]

1) =Cry foul

2)= Refuse to participate in any process which may resolve differences.

HOLY HYPOCRITE, BATMAN!

Isn't this straight from the East playbook?

pause...

Thought so. :down:

 

[767jetz]

I honestly think your tactic is flawed (litigation vs. negotiation)

You want to better position your case?

Get an LEC up and running, motion some revisions to policy and do some due diligence and work.

Where was this sentiment during mediation, before it even came to binding arbitration? What about after Nicolau ruled?

At any point you could have recalled your MEC who was shackling the negotiating committee and actually gotten down to coming up with solutions besides DOH. Instead your side chose to do nothing, dig in your heals and resorted to litigation. Sound familiar?

What cracks me up is that now, all of a sudden, you want everyone to be "reasonable" (read: do it my way!) when you were unable to do that yourselves.

Unbelievable! :down:

 

[767jetz]

The most egregious lie perpetuated by USAPA is that DOH with conditions/restrictions actually provides protection to the west pilots.

The east group always presents a picture where USAir expands indefinitely, like the universe, and that DOH is fair because the west eventually inherits the wind.

The real picture is that oil is at $119/bbl and anyone who is not preparing for a downgrade and/or a furlough is living on fantasy island.

The only conditions and restrictions ever proposed by the east envisioned a twelve month window whereby the last pilot recalled would be the first furloughed. After that it goes DOH, which means west working pilots on the street and former east furloughees working.

Once, or rather if, recalls commence DOH is again controlling. Therefore once people in my seniority bracket have downgraded (and are now junior to former furloughees ) and thence gone to the street, when we come back we get to yank gear for pilots who were on the street when we were captains.

Quite a few of your brethren feel that this is perfectly fine because the west pilots should pay for the sacrifices of the east.

This is 100% accurate, and the USAPA is not fooling anyone. Of course when anyone shines a light on their version of the truth, it is categorically dismissed or the subject is conveniently changed.

Thankfully the real truth and the history as it has unfolded up until now, is a matter of record that can not be erased, and will become glaringly obvious during any and all upcoming litigation.

 

[elixir]

Where was this sentiment during mediation, before it even came to binding arbitration? What about after Nicolau ruled?

At any point you could have recalled your MEC who was shackling the negotiating committee and actually gotten down to coming up with solutions besides DOH. Instead your side chose to do nothing, dig in your heals and resorted to litigation. Sound familiar?

What cracks me up is that now, all of a sudden, you want everyone to be "reasonable" (read: do it my way!) when you were unable to do that yourselves.

Unbelievable! :down:

Wrong, I actually don't care how this gets handled...because I have no control over what our West group will do....in much the same way as the East pilots were shut out BY ALPA over so many like issues.
Recalled the MEC? haven't you read up on things? They summarily ignored motions filed in CLT, and in a very clandestine and smelly way put PHL in receivership in a manner inconsistent with normal legal matters.

No, it's safe to say the East pilots had completely lost control of ALPA on their property, and Prater made sure that was the case....or tried to....so don't tell me what "we" could have done with our ALPA representation.

If it's the lawyers who get fat on this deal, it is what it is.

 

[767jetz]

Recalled the MEC? haven't you read up on things? They summarily ignored motions filed in CLT, and in a very clandestine and smelly way put PHL in receivership in a manner inconsistent with normal legal matters.

Boy, talk about denial. FYI, I was referring to before you chose to litigate and ignore the outcome of the arbitration. Not one objection or even filed motion or attempt to get control of your leadership. Not one cry of foul play that your negotiating committee was steering you down a dead end.

At least if some of you had spoken up and at least tried to be compel your MEC and Negotiating Committee to be reasonable, you could now say, "Hey, we tried but it didn't work." But in reality, not a peep from the masses. Could it perhaps be because you had actually hoped their tactic would be successful and your silence was a passive vote of approval? Until of course it didn't work. Now you want to try to falsely occupy the moral high ground by justifying your silence away as just being a victim of the Big Bad ALAP National machine.

What a farce. You are fooling no one.

 

[Bear96]

It will likely end up a federally arbitrated merging of the list as a result of the new federal legislation. The legislation makes the Allegheny-Mohawk protections part of the process. Pretty much all of previous arbitrations under A-M have gone DOH. Federal arbitrators are loathe to ignore precedent. I'll take my chances.

I wasn't aware many (if any) merger arbitrations had actually been done "under A-M" (except the original Allegheny-Mohawk one, of course). Which ones are you referring to? I'd be interested in trying to dig up the arbitration decisions.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Bear and Jetz:
We all know it was ALPA's goal to destroy the East guys seniority for future mergers. No one expects either of you to do anything but spout ALPA's viewpoints, being the ALPA shills you are.

I can pretty much guess what your posts will say even before I read them. Same "can't change Nic" stuff, over and over again. The East had NO CHOICE but to vote ALPA, the money grubbin', "I've got mine" "asssociation" off the property or a lot of reasons, the Nic being only one of them. The folks that put this USAPA drive together are clearly a lot brighter and more organized than ANYTHING I've ever witnessed out of ALPA on any level. They have my confidence, and I'm sure they'll do their best to some how mitigate (note I said "mitigate" not "get rid of" or anything else) the Nic award.

Go ahead, spout more ALPA diatribe, I would expect nothing else, since apparently BOTH of you hve a lot to lose in future mergers once Nic is discredited.

 

[Bear96]

Bear and Jetz:
We all know it was ALPA's goal to destroy the East guys seniority for future mergers.

So the ALPA merger policy that was written in, what, 1991, was done knowing what USAirways' situation would be in a merger 15 years later, and was all part of a big future plot against U's pilots?

Yup, you have convinced me. Thanks for shining a light on that dastardly deed. Now I see how wrong I have been.

 

[Schultz]

Here I agree with you.

I don't think the company really cares one way or the other.


On the other hand they don't want to unnecessarily expose themselves to potential damages.

AWAPPA attorneys have already served notice to the company that should they enter into discussions regarding a change in the seniority list they will be hit with an injunction and a damages claim.

Now you get it. When the FEDERAL judge in the MDA case comes out and says the list was flawed. The company won"t want to expose themselves to potential damages.