Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

[767jetz]

Bear and Jetz:
Go ahead, spout more ALPA diatribe, I would expect nothing else, since apparently BOTH of you hve a lot to lose in future mergers once Nic is discredited.

Well, I guess we can just as easily call you a USAPA shill.

Sorry you feel that way. Notice that most of my recent posts point to the hypocrisy of suddenly wanting to be "reasonable" when you guys were unable to do the same at any earlier point. Again, your definition of reasonable seems to be "do it my way!"

FYI, I really don't care what the name of your union is. I have lost no sleep over your departure from ALPA. Once again, as I have pointed out before, all you do is change the subject and call names when someone shines a bright spotlight on your version of the "truth." As ableoneable accurately points out:

The most egregious lie perpetuated by USAPA is that DOH with conditions/restrictions actually provides protection to the west pilots.

The east group always presents a picture where USAir expands indefinitely, like the universe, and that DOH is fair because the west eventually inherits the wind.

The real picture is that oil is at $119/bbl and anyone who is not preparing for a downgrade and/or a furlough is living on fantasy island.

The only conditions and restrictions ever proposed by the east envisioned a twelve month window whereby the last pilot recalled would be the first furloughed. After that it goes DOH, which means west working pilots on the street and former east furloughees working.

Once, or rather if, recalls commence DOH is again controlling. Therefore once people in my seniority bracket have downgraded (and are now junior to former furloughees ) and thence gone to the street, when we come back we get to yank gear for pilots who were on the street when we were captains.

Quite a few of your brethren feel that this is perfectly fine because the west pilots should pay for the sacrifices of the east.

This tactic of yours is philosophically and morally wrong, regardless of what union you call your own. So this is not about ALPA or USAPA to me. Never has been. It is about standing up for what is right. And you sir, do not own exclusive rights to what is good and just and worth fighting for. That is a matter of perspective, regardless of what you feel entitled to.

 

[KTM300]

Boy, talk about denial. FYI, I was referring to before you chose to litigate and ignore the outcome of the arbitration. Not one objection or even filed motion or attempt to get control of your leadership. Not one cry of foul play that your negotiating committee was steering you down a dead end.

At least if some of you had spoken up and at least tried to be compel your MEC and Negotiating Committee to be reasonable, you could now say, "Hey, we tried but it didn't work." But in reality, not a peep from the masses. Could it perhaps be because you had actually hoped their tactic would be successful and your silence was a passive vote of approval? Until of course it didn't work. Now you want to try to falsely occupy the moral high ground by justifying your silence away as just being a victim of the Big Bad ALAP National machine.

What a farce. You are fooling no one.

I have seen others say they believe you work for UAL, I personally don't know or care. Your posts seem to imply otherwise. You are more involved with what is happening here than what is going on in DEN. Your posts also imply that you, and only you, know the difference between right and wrong, left and right, up and down, and most important to our discussion, what is fair and not fair. For the sake of argument, were ever you hang your hat, my guess is you don't have 10 years seniority were you are currently employed.

Now read carefully...many spoke up to compel our MEC and NC to be reasonable. Many said, "We tried but it didn't work." The masses were peeping! There was no 'silence', you just couldn't hear. Your experience with ALPA can't come close to mine (I can assure you of that). No one has said that they want to falsely occupy the moral high ground(your words) or anyones seat for that matter. When two companies merge you get the good with the bad. With out going into what is good and bad about mergers, Mr. Nicolau and ALPA failed to occupy the moral high ground. Pilots fly airplanes and seniority is everything and any time you have occupied a seat on the carrier that is merging with another carrier should be credited to you on a list when combined. The assumption that, because someone has been furloughed, a fate I might add, that is of no fault of their own and one that none of us has control over, means they don't matter, they don't count and their experience is irrelevant is not moral.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So the ALPA merger policy that was written in, what, 1991, was done knowing what USAirways' situation would be in a merger 15 years later, and was all part of a big future plot against U's pilots?

Yup, you have convinced me. Thanks for shining a light on that dastardly deed. Now I see how wrong I have been.

Glad you are beginning to see the light. Just a minor correction. The 1991 change to merger policy was done in anticipation of earlier mergers that might have taken place between DAL, UAL on one side and TWA, AAA, PAA on the other. In other words, a younger group controlling ALPA trying to protect themselves in the event of a transaction with an older, smaller group.

 

[Piedmont1984]

767jetz

A question. You posted earlier that the attempt at an in-house union failed miserably at UAL. Do you have any numbers, was there a vote, when did it take place, just how close did it come?

O.K., so it's a compound question.

 

[Flyz4food]

It will likely end up a federally arbitrated merging of the list as a result of the new federal legislation. The legislation makes the Allegheny-Mohawk protections part of the process. Pretty much all of previous arbitrations under A-M have gone DOH. Federal arbitrators are loathe to ignore precedent. I'll take my chances.

And when it is arbitrated and you don't like the results? DO OVER? AGAIN?

 

[Bear96]

It will likely end up a federally arbitrated merging of the list as a result of the new federal legislation. The legislation makes the Allegheny-Mohawk protections part of the process. Pretty much all of previous arbitrations under A-M have gone DOH. Federal arbitrators are loathe to ignore precedent. I'll take my chances.

Good point flyz4food.

What's this? An East pilot and USAPA supporter saying, "I'll take my chances at arbitration"?

Haven't we been down this road?

 

[KTM300]

Good point flyz4food.

What's this? An East pilot and USAPA supporter saying, "I'll take my chances at arbitration"?

Haven't we been down this road?

No....The difference is now there is a level playing field!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Actually, the new law (amendment for jimntx's sake) only applies to mergers that occur after the effective date so it doesn't apply to the US/HP merger.

Jim

 

[767jetz]

767jetz

A question. You posted earlier that the attempt at an in-house union failed miserably at UAL. Do you have any numbers, was there a vote, when did it take place, just how close did it come?

O.K., so it's a compound question.

Don't have the exact dates or numbers in front of me, but if memory serves me correctly they closed the doors at UPA about a year ago. Never even got close to having a vote due to lack of support. Revolved around a small group of pilots hired around the '83 to '86 time frame. My best guess is maybe a few hundred die hard supporters, and MAYBE a few hundred more willing to lend an ear and hear what they had to say. This is out of around 8000 pilots. Best guess anyway.

 

[Leonidas]

USAPA will be in LAS and PHX in the next week or so to close the ALPO offices and the new seniority list will be turned over to the company in a month or two. Section 6 talks will start in about 5 to 6 months,Legal action will be taken for non payment of dues. Just some info!! I guess if we merge with AA will you all feel your entitled to all their widebody flying also! whose the scab now?

You are, and 56000 pilots know it and recognize it.

 

[Flyz4food]

No....The difference is now there is a level playing field!

Level how? East was told on numerous occasions to come off DOH. They told NIC to pound sand. You know that was the case. You didn't like the outcome and want to reposition. DO OVER!! Bunch of children, went and took your ball home. In the end, we will get a new ball.

 

[luv2fly]

I'll take my chances.

You did that last time and lost. Next time you will not have the majority vote. Like I said, USAPA stands to have the one of the briefest periods of existence if US mergers.

 

[ableoneable]

Now you get it. When the FEDERAL judge in the MDA case comes out and says the list was flawed. The company won"t want to expose themselves to potential damages.

You obviously don't understand how this works.

Excepting for the moment the fact that the MDA case is weak and has little chance of success, even if a favorable ruling is obtained the only thing that will be gained is the ability to collect damages from national.

It will have no effect on the arbitration that followed.

 

[EastUS]

At any point you could have recalled your MEC ........Unbelievable! :down:

Congrats! That's the biggest Alpoid outright lie yet posted here. Kindly take a moment to explain the actions of Alpo Notional as regards the PHL council, versus the totally ignored membership demand for recall of the CLT council. Talk about BS that can "crack me up"...yours takes the cake. 🙄 "Unbelievable!" :down:

Reaches for Alpo-Fly swatter again....

 

[ableoneable]

That's the biggest outright Alpoid lie yet posted here. Kindly take a moment to explain the actions of Alpo Notional as regards the PHL council, versus the totally ignored membership demand for recall of the CLT council. Talk about BS that can "crack me up"...yours takes the cake. 🙄 "Unbelievable!" :down:

Reaches for Alpo-Fly swatter again....

Another non sequitur from East.

Jetz points out that you could have recalled these bozos at any time and you say that is a lie and counter with a completely unrelated item, the trusteeship of the PHL council.

What has the one to do with the other?

Please explain why a recall was not possible?

Can you take responsibility for anything at all?