Pilots, Send in those cards

[Bear96]

If east is successful at decertifying ALPA then who pray tell would deliver the list? It is the job of Prater to turn in the list. Are you suggesting Prater would sign the list and place it on Dougwiesers desk at a time in which he is not the representative of the pilots that are on the list? Hahahahah....

Are you still stuck on the minutiae of paper shuffling? Do you really think that decertifying ALPA will be like waving a magic wand and make things as if the arbitration never happened?

Between you and USA320pilot, I have never seen such cases of denial.

 

[EastUS]

Sorry, yes, ALPA has an obligation to present the list and defend it. Whether Prater presents the list tommorrow or 2 months from now, I could care less, but he will present the list before any new Union is in charge.

"but he will present the list before any new Union is in charge." Another opinion missrepresented as "fact".

That's right up there with the notion on west seeking of east attrition: "No one from the west will fight you over yours either." Yeah....no doubt, given that amongst the west's most prolific posters came "your attrition became our attrition". I wish the attrition issue could be agreed upon via handshakes on the board..but no reasons for mutual trust exist and it ain't gonna' happen.

 

[Phoenix]

Sorry, yes, ALPA has an obligation to present the list and defend it. Whether Prater presents the list tommorrow or 2 months from now, I could care less, but he will present the list before any new Union is in charge.

Of course Prater has an obligationt to sign it and give it to Dougweiser. The list ain't the list until Dougie has Prater's signature on it. Want to borrow my pen to take to Prater. He has a list of food courts he will be visiting soon. Maybe you can catch him.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Phoenix said: "If east is successful at decertifying ALPA then who pray tell would deliver the list? It is the job of Prater to turn in the list. Are you suggesting Prater would sign the list and place it on Dougwiesers desk at a time in which he is not the representative of the pilots that are on the list? Hahahahah...."

Bear 96: "Are you still stuck on the minutiae of paper shuffling? Do you really think that decertifying ALPA will be like waving a magic wand and make things as if the arbitration never happened? Between you and USA320pilot, I have never seen such cases of denial."

USA320Pilot comments: According to USAPA Counsel Lee Sahem, "ALPA’s Merger and Fragmentation Policy provides that a seniority integration award “shall be defended by ALPA†and that “ALPA will use all reasonable means at its disposal to compel the company to accept and implement the merged seniority list.†ALPA Administrative Manual, § 45, Part I, §§ H.5.b and I.1. Consequently, ALPA may have a contractual obligation to its members to implement the Nicolau award. See Olsonoski v. ALPA, 1994 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 8239 (N.D. Cal. 1994)(“ALPA must comply with its merger as a matter of law and as a matter of contract between ALPA and its members.â€). A successor union, which codified in its own constitution a commitment to the rational goal of date of hire seniority integration, would not be constrained by the dictates of ALPA’s Merger and Fragmentation Policy."

I believe the US Airways pilots are tired of the AWA MEC and its pilots not listening to the ALPA EC, Rice Committee, and Doug Parker who all desire a compromise to the Nicolau Award dispute. In the not-to-distant future ALPA may no longer be a player.

Once USAPA takes control over the combined pilot group there will be a new seniority integration negotiation. USAPA cannot deprive, and will not deprive, the West their right to negotiate a new seniority integration agreement and they will allow the process to carry out. USAPA and their Counsel clearly understands they cannot “lock out†the minority group (the AWA pilots) because this would create a DFR lawsuit, which could be won by the plaintiff. But, the majority group can “vote out†the minority group and implement a seniority integration, which can be effectively imposed. Basically USAPA could close the question, call the vote, call for the “I’s†who would decide the matter, the case would be closed, and seniority imposition would occur.

To make it perfectly clear to you what will happen, without a “realistic solution†that will likely be proposed by the Rice Committee, USAPA will become the new bargaining agent for the US Airways and the AWA pilots in the not-to-distant future. Next the seniority award/seniority integration will be re-visited. USAPA will not deprive the minority group of pilots of their legal rights to participate in the seniority negotiation process. Once the minority group presents their case in argument, with no agreement between the parties a new seniority list can be presented to the membership and imposed on the minority list.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Phoenix]

Bear 96: "Are you still stuck on the minutiae of paper shuffling?

Oh, I see Bear still has a problem with owning up to what a signature means. He apparently still thinks the line swine signed up to binding arbitration and now are obligated to papershuffle his list. I swear if I was obligated to paper shuffle his list for him I would.

 

[Bear96]

USA320Pilot comments: According to USAPA Counsel Lee Sahem, "ALPA’s Merger and Fragmentation Policy provides that a seniority integration award “shall be defended by ALPA†and that “ALPA will use all reasonable means at its disposal to compel the company to accept and implement the merged seniority list.†ALPA Administrative Manual, § 45, Part I, §§ H.5.b and I.1. Consequently, ALPA may have a contractual obligation to its members to implement the Nicolau award. See Olsonoski v. ALPA, 1994 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 8239 (N.D. Cal. 1994)(“ALPA must comply with its merger as a matter of law and as a matter of contract between ALPA and its members.â€). A successor union, which codified in its own constitution a commitment to the rational goal of date of hire seniority integration, would not be constrained by the dictates of ALPA’s Merger and Fragmentation Policy."

Yes, for future mergers.

Once USAPA takes control over the combined pilot group there will be a new seniority integration negotiation.

This will be the real question. You are saying that once a work group elects a new union, the new union can go back and retroactively change what already happened in the past. I disagree.

Can this new union you are going to install tell the company it wants to revisit the termination of the DB pension too, or any of the other concessions of the past several years? After all, it was ALPA, not the new union, who signed off on it, and the new union is not bound by silly ALPA procedures and decisions with which it doesn't agree, right?

 

[A320 Driver]

Phoenix said: "If east is successful at decertifying ALPA then who pray tell would deliver the list? It is the job of Prater to turn in the list. Are you suggesting Prater would sign the list and place it on Dougwiesers desk at a time in which he is not the representative of the pilots that are on the list? Hahahahah...."

Bear 96: "Are you still stuck on the minutiae of paper shuffling? Do you really think that decertifying ALPA will be like waving a magic wand and make things as if the arbitration never happened? Between you and USA320pilot, I have never seen such cases of denial."

USA320Pilot comments: According to USAPA Counsel Lee Sahem, "ALPA’s Merger and Fragmentation Policy provides that a seniority integration award “shall be defended by ALPA†and that “ALPA will use all reasonable means at its disposal to compel the company to accept and implement the merged seniority list.†ALPA Administrative Manual, § 45, Part I, §§ H.5.b and I.1. Consequently, ALPA may have a contractual obligation to its members to implement the Nicolau award. See Olsonoski v. ALPA, 1994 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 8239 (N.D. Cal. 1994)(“ALPA must comply with its merger as a matter of law and as a matter of contract between ALPA and its members.â€). A successor union, which codified in its own constitution a commitment to the rational goal of date of hire seniority integration, would not be constrained by the dictates of ALPA’s Merger and Fragmentation Policy."

I believe the US Airways pilots are tired of the AWA MEC and its pilots not listening to the ALPA EC, Rice Committee, and Doug Parker who all desire a compromise to the Nicolau Award dispute. In the not-to-distant future ALPA may no longer be a player.

Once USAPA takes control over the combined pilot group there will be a new seniority integration negotiation. USAPA cannot deprive, and will not deprive, the West their right to negotiate a new seniority integration agreement and they will allow the process to carry out. USAPA and their Counsel clearly understands they cannot “lock out†the minority group (the AWA pilots) because this would create a DFR lawsuit, which could be won by the plaintiff. But, the majority group can “vote out†the minority group and implement a seniority integration, which can be effectively imposed. Basically USAPA could close the question, call the vote, call for the “I’s†who would decide the matter, the case would be closed, and seniority imposition would occur.

To make it perfectly clear to you what will happen, without a “realistic solution†that will likely be proposed by the Rice Committee, USAPA will become the new bargaining agent for the US Airways and the AWA pilots in the not-to-distant future. Next the seniority award/seniority integration will be re-visited. USAPA will not deprive the minority group of pilots of their legal rights to participate in the seniority negotiation process. Once the minority group presents their case in argument, with no agreement between the parties a new seniority list can be presented to the membership and imposed on the minority list.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Two points here Sir:

One, if the East pilots are successful in their effort to replace ALPA on the property, isn't it obvious that the parting shot from ALPA national will be to deliver the list? Once delivered and surely accepted, how does USAPA intend to undo that which is already done? Certifying USAPA will not happen over night and I assure you ALPA national won't be cordial about it.

Two, there was very little meaningful negotiation in the merger processs last time. What makes you think that the West pilots will find a DOH integration method any more reasonable this time around? That is sure to be the method East writes into the constitution and bylaws of the new union. What happens if West pilots vote as a block and take control of USAPA and change it to suit themselves?

I'm not trying to be a jerk. I have real questions and I'm not seeing many satisfactory answers. This is probably not the place to look anyway.

A320 Driver :unsure:

 

[Bear96]

He apparently still thinks the line swine signed up to binding arbitration and now are obligated to papershuffle his list. I swear if I was obligated to paper shuffle his list for him I would.

???

Translation please?

 

[Phoenix]

Two points here Sir:

One, if the East pilots are successful in their effort to replace ALPA on the property, isn't it obvious that the parting shot from ALPA national will be to deliver the list? Once delivered and surely accepted, how does USAPA intend to undo that which is already done? Certifying USAPA will not happen over night and I assure you ALPA national won't be cordial about it.

Two, there was very little meaningful negotiation in the merger processs last time. What makes you think that the West pilots will find a DOH integration method any more reasonable this time around? That is sure to be the method East writes into the constitution and bylaws of the new union. What happens if West pilots vote as a block and take control of USAPA and change it to suit themselves?

I'm not trying to be a jerk. I have real questions and I'm not seeing many satisfactory answers. This is probably not the place to look anyway.

A320 Driver :unsure:

It certainly is possible that Prater isn't bothered by an assumed threat to change his current scowl to a signed list as a parting gift to the "ungrateful ALPA turncoats". Heck isn't that exactly what we have grown to expect from ALAP? Threats or more concessions for ALPA peace. I don't know how it will all play out, but it is obvious that no one thinks Prater is representing them. He needs to get his pen out and do his job. What pray tell is the seniority list Mr. President?

 

[Busdrvr]

I believe the US Airways pilots are tired of the AWA MEC and its pilots not listening to the ALPA EC, Rice Committee, and Doug Parker who all desire a compromise to the Nicolau Award dispute. In the not-to-distant future ALPA may no longer be a player.

Once USAPA takes control over the combined pilot group there will be a new seniority integration negotiation. USAPA cannot deprive, and will not deprive, the West their right to negotiate a new seniority integration agreement and they will allow the process to carry out. USAPA and their Counsel clearly understands they cannot “lock outâ€￾ the minority group (the AWA pilots) because this would create a DFR lawsuit, which could be won by the plaintiff. But, the majority group can “vote outâ€￾ the minority group and implement a seniority integration, which can be effectively imposed. Basically USAPA could close the question, call the vote, call for the “I’sâ€￾ who would decide the matter, the case would be closed, and seniority imposition would occur.

To make it perfectly clear to you what will happen, without a “realistic solutionâ€￾ that will likely be proposed by the Rice Committee, USAPA will become the new bargaining agent for the US Airways and the AWA pilots in the not-to-distant future. Next the seniority award/seniority integration will be re-visited. USAPA will not deprive the minority group of pilots of their legal rights to participate in the seniority negotiation process. Once the minority group presents their case in argument, with no agreement between the parties a new seniority list can be presented to the membership and imposed on the minority list.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

WADR (what little I have for you), you are out of your F'n mind. How is it you will include the West folks in your little hissy fit union WHEN THEY AREN'T ON YOUR LIST?

You are too F'n stupid to find the gate for your next flight if you have any belief that this could possibly work. And to think, All us UAL guys needed to do back when the vocal idiots at U were asking for the manuals for the 400 was to decertify ALPA and "create a union that says always staple the smaller group" in event of a merger. Do they drug test you guys?

 

[Junebug172]

I believe the US Airways pilots are tired of the AWA MEC and its pilots not listening to the ALPA EC, Rice Committee, and Doug Parker who all desire a compromise to the Nicolau Award dispute.

First of all, Armageddon, we're tired of listening to you and your drivel.

Second, you guys are doing a dandy job of listening to the Rice Committee by pulling out of the JNC for parity and 8% interest.

Frickin' hypocrite.

How about you let your daddy vote again.

 

[A320 Driver]

I have posted numerous ideas - no need to waste more bandwidth repeating. I am just sorry that negotiations with the MC's, then mediation, and finally arbitration was not enough to satisfy you guys. Over a million spent in attorney fees by AWA alone and probably another million or two defending Nic and suing east back to the stone age, with ample legal evidence to succeed. Sad state of affairs :down:

Really? Did any of them NOT require the East pilots to lay down their arms and accept Nic as is?

Probably not...

If you have such a great case and legal team, why haven't you already started "suing east back to the stone age"? You have us at a disadvantage. We make a lot less than you do, you are determined to keep us there unless it benefits you, and you took 40% of our profit sharing. That was probably a nice down payment on your legal fees...or a Harley.

The Harley would give give you a better return on the investment.

A320 Driver <_<

 

[traderjake]

Keeping the company going is not my concern.

Proof that some East pilots are too mentally challenged to act in their own best interest.

I'll say this slow so you can follow.

No company, no job, no seniority, DOH or otherwise.

 

[Phoenix]

Proof that some East pilots are too mentally challenged to act in their own best interest.

I'll say this slow so you can follow.

No company, no job, no seniority, DOH or otherwise.

I appreciate your evaluation of my best interests. Your assumption that everyone has only two options 1) Nic and a job or 2) no Nic and no job is limited. But I got the value of every penny I paid you.

 

[EastUS]

Proof that some East pilots are too mentally challenged to act in their own best interest.

I'll say this slow so you can follow.

No company, no job, no seniority, DOH or otherwise.

More like Proof that most West pilots are too unimaginative, and too poor to envision life without this operation