PSA Are they trying to get us to Quit?

[Nebucanezzar]

Bear96
For pilot labor specifically, it is because for every airline pilot, there are ten kids standing in line eager to do anything to stay current and build time. I bet you were one of those kids not long ago.

Maybe it is time to break the cycle.

There's also ten kids (the ones who never shared on the playground) that are going to go to business school to get a job in management

So maybe they should all take paycuts while we hand ourselves a 3% raise along with stock options...after all, there are plenty of them so their wages and work rules should suffer right?

Then, when they max out, maybe there should be a concerted effort to make them miserable so they will quit.

 

[gabby]

For pilot labor specifically, it is because for every airline pilot, there are ten kids standing in line eager to do anything to stay current and build time. I bet you were one of those kids not long ago.

Maybe it is time to break the cycle.

You are kinda correct. I did do my fair share of flight instructing 135 and also 121 and word needs to get out that 135 can be much more rewarding and even cfi ing. I will never say i have had it the roughest but certainly timing is everything and for me starting to fly in 1990 was a long hard road. I believe i have earned this job and that is why it pisses me off so much. To work so hard for something that wasn't worth it. I expected more because the journey to get here wasn't paved in gold. I earned this job, i didn't buy it. No SJS here! I should be able to make a fair wage for my services to the company.

 

[Bear96]

There's also ten kids (the ones who never shared on the playground) that are going to go to business school to get a job in management

Yes, and a lot of people think there is a glut of MBAs out there too. The vast majority of people who obtain MBAs don't walk right into six figure jobs on Wall Street or in the executive suite of a Fortune 100 company. Same concept with lawyers.

I would wager that most people who obtain post-graduate professional degrees make a lot less than you think. A few hit it big, but a lot of MBAs slog it out at the local H&R Block filling out tax returns, and a lot of JDs end up working at a small law firm writing Aunt Millie's will, for $30K/yr.

Of course, if you really believe an MBA is an automatic and guaranteed ticket to wealth, you are always free to go get one. You can even do it on line these days, I understand.

You should check out the pay of management jobs within USAirways. You might be surprised how little the vast majority of them are paid.

 

[Nebucanezzar]

I wasn't referring the the managers who are in the trenches. They are worth their salt. 30K at H&R block is barely a living wage...20K 1st/25K 2nd (regional FO) is poverty.

Thanks for your response. My initial post was not a jab at entry/mid level managers. Please realize we are not asking for a ticket to wealth...just a living wage...its important to be able to pay the mortgage and be able to eat. If management gets a 3% increase then so should everybody in the company.

 

[Bear96]

Thanks for your response. My initial post was not a jab at entry/mid level managers. Please realize we are not asking for a ticket to wealth...just a living wage...its important to be able to pay the mortgage and be able to eat. If management gets a 3% increase then so should everybody in the company.

The yearly step increases are still in place for unionized employees. So, many of them are receiving comparable raises.

I realize that doesn't include those who are topped out. But obviously, if those people have been here for so long despite (what many claim to be) miserable pay, US does not have to offer them more money to stay, so why should they?

The situation is different with non-union groups who aren't chained in by the seniority system. Companies have to remain competitive with other employers for similar positions, or people who don't risk a loss of seniority will leave in a heartbeat.

Do you really think any airline management pays a penny more for ANY low- or mid-level employee (union or not) than they absolutely have to, to attract and retain at least minimally competent people?

If you think they are paying low/mid level management more than they have to, what is their motivation in doing so? To be "nice"? To make the unionized folks angry? To make their balance sheet look worse for investors? None of those make sense. So what are you suggesting the motivation is for "overpaying" whichever low/mid level managers you think are "overpaid"?

20K 1st/25K 2nd (regional FO) is poverty.

If people keep signing up to work at those wages -- because they are desperate to keep current, or build hours, or get ME time, or whatever -- then management will continue to pay those wages.

 

[luvn737s]

The situation is different with non-union groups who aren't chained in by the seniority system. Companies have to remain competitive with other employers for similar positions, or people who don't risk a loss of seniority will leave in a heartbeat.

Do you really think any airline management pays a penny more for ANY low- or mid-level employee (union or not) than they absolutely have to, to attract and retain at least minimally competent people?

Well maybe you are on to something. Perhaps the seniority system is hindering rather than helping. What if airlines could hire into any level or grade of position they wanted? Pilots from within the airline would have a preference but not be the exclusive source of pilots. Let me explain.

Suppose you rank pilots in each seat grade 1-10, say, with higher wages for each grade. If you meet the requirements for a grade 7 Captain, for instance, you could apply at any airline looking to hire a grade 7 Captain. Your credentials would suddenly have portability and you wouldn't be chained to a concrete seniority list. If your airline craters, you take your credentials to another airline. Suppose their requirements were based on a point system which rewarded longevity at a carrier with more points, but allowed for moves between airlines as well. The FAA could mandate more boilerplate AQP programs thus homogenizing the training between airlines and facilitating such a system, while making it easier for the FAA to do their job. Also, if an airline found it was losing too many pilots in a certain grade they might have to give that grade more money. It's not that far-fetched, especially now.

 

[gabby]

If people keep signing up to work at those wages -- because they are desperate to keep current, or build hours, or get ME time, or whatever -- then management will continue to pay those wages.

The wages are already set in place. If you want to work in this industry you have to start at the bottom, no matter what your experience level is. The only choice you have is wether or not to take the job. And quite frankly i don't think any pilot new to 121 has any idea how much work is involved. Thus not realizing how pathetic the pay is till after the fact.
We have a responsibility not to let this happen in the future. When we vote on a contract we must look at all levels of pay not just the one we are currently at. We must look at schedules and how reserves are treated and there should be a bonus system for those who work more than say 18 days.
So don't blame the new pilots, the contract was signed long before we got here. Someone at that time said it was OK to pay this pathetic salary. It wasn't OK at the time, but out of selfishness it was signed. At the expense of your future F/O's. If you don't want to listen to me #### then quit!

 

[Bear96]

We have a responsibility not to let this happen in the future. When we vote on a contract we must look at all levels of pay not just the one we are currently at. We must look at schedules and how reserves are treated and there should be a bonus system for those who work more than say 18 days.

So do you think that if you just vote "No," a better contract will magically appear?

While the amount of solidarity a group has may have a small effect on pay scales, ultimately pay and work conditions for a job are determined by the labor market as a whole -- i.e., supply and demand for the particular skill. And unfortunately, the supply of low-time entry-level pilots desperate to fly cool airplanes and willing to put up with a lot of crap to build time for that theoretical bigger and better job with the majors (just what the regionals are looking for in its pilots) is large relative to the demand for them right now.

So don't blame the new pilots, the contract was signed long before we got here.

I am not "blaming" anyone. I am just pointing out the reality of the situation. And the reality is, a lot of people have been willing to work for your airline for the wages that are currently offered for whatever reason, including you. Maybe that will change soon. Maybe it won't.

If you don't want to listen to me #### then quit!

Why should I quit my well-paying non-aviation job because of your ####ing about your pathetic pay at your job? (And BTW, I quite enjoy listening to you ####. It makes me realize my decision to get out of the airline industry was a wise one.)

Well maybe you are on to something. Perhaps the seniority system is hindering rather than helping. What if airlines could hire into any level or grade of position they wanted? Pilots from within the airline would have a preference but not be the exclusive source of pilots. Let me explain.

That's an interesting idea you outlined. A lot of non-U.S. airlines already do something similar, for example with their "direct-entry captain" schemes, where if you have a certain amount of experience in type, you can be hired directly as a captain and jump over the current F.O.s at that airline. However, as you can imagine, that creates a lot of issues with the current F.O.s who are all itching for the left seat.

So while it is an interesting idea, good luck getting the U.S. pilot unions on board.

 

[gabby]

I am not "blaming" anyone. I am just pointing out the reality of the situation. And the reality is, a lot of people have been willing to work for your airline for the wages that are currently offered for whatever reason, including you. Maybe that will change soon. Maybe it won't.

I doubt anyone knows what they are getting into until it is too late. Aviation is well known for being crooked. Airline Management are not the most ethical people on this planet. We were all lied to, continue to be lied to. Even the DOL has posted that pilots make up to $250/hr. Maybe some do, but even my $29/hr is misleading. How about $25,000 a year. That would raise eyebrows for a different reason. I am glad you are out of aviation as well, but if you are hanging around here i would assume you still have a desire to be back in the seat!

 

[Bear96]

I doubt anyone knows what they are getting into until it is too late. Aviation is well known for being crooked. Airline Management are not the most ethical people on this planet. We were all lied to, continue to be lied to. Even the DOL has posted that pilots make up to $250/hr. Maybe some do, but even my $29/hr is misleading. How about $25,000 a year. That would raise eyebrows for a different reason. I am glad you are out of aviation as well, but if you are hanging around here i would assume you still have a desire to be back in the seat!

I desire to be back in the seat, but only on my own terms, like in a little Cessna or Piper twirling around at my leisure on a beautiful clear and calm autumn morning.

However, the labor issues at the airlines will continue to fascinate me. That is an interest I developed that I will carry with me. I still deal with labor and employment issues in my "new" life (although not so much in the airline context), so I enjoy checking in here.

(BTW, the idea that most people don't really know what they are getting into until it is too late -- after spending years and tens of thousands of dollars on specialized education or training -- can be said about many professions.)

 

[gabby]

I desire to be back in the seat, but only on my own terms, like in a little Cessna or Piper twirling around at my leisure on a beautiful clear and calm autumn morning.

However, the labor issues at the airlines will continue to fascinate me. That is an interest I developed that I will carry with me. I still deal with labor and employment issues in my "new" life (although not so much in the airline context), so I enjoy checking in here.

(BTW, the idea that most people don't really know what they are getting into until it is too late -- after spending years and tens of thousands of dollars on specialized education or training -- can be said about many professions.)

Maybe, My dentist still wishes he became a pilot!

 

[Brownstreak]

I partly disagree that life at mainline is easier than PSA. Had a mainline guy in the jumpseat the other day from LGA-PIT and his QoL sounded a lot like ours, he's an Airbus FO commuting to RSV in LGA (he got recalled this year), living in PIT with 10 days off a month. That sounds eerily similar to life here at PSA.

 

[gabby]

I partly disagree that life at mainline is easier than PSA. Had a mainline guy in the jumpseat the other day from LGA-PIT and his QoL sounded a lot like ours, he's an Airbus FO commuting to RSV in LGA (he got recalled this year), living in PIT with 10 days off a month. That sounds eerily similar to life here at PSA.

Another 10 November IOE lines taken away from F/O's in CLT. 1 in TYS and 1 in DAY.
Way to screw your F/O's again. This place sucks.

 

[chichi]

Another 10 November IOE lines taken away from F/O's in CLT. 1 in TYS and 1 in DAY.
Way to screw your F/O's again. This place sucks.

PSA signed up for it. Live with it. W/O it, PSA would cease to exit. And you would not have a message board to rant on!!!!!