Seniortiy

[Bear96]

To all the U F/As telling HP F/As "Relax. There will be fences around PHX. Even if there weren't, no one will be rushing from PHL/CLT to PHX."

Doesn't that logic work both ways? Why are you so afraid of some sort of other, non-DOH system? If the HP F/As are supposed to be satisfied by your reassurances, wouldn't it be good enough for you to hear, "Relax. There will be fences around PHL/CLT/etc. No one will be rushing to the East Coast"?

On one level this is kind of a silly argument because the AFA C&B is pretty clear: DOH prevails, and therefore the HP F/As are gonna get screwed and there is not much they can do about it. But I just find it amusing that the U F/As keep telling their HP counterparts to relax ... trust us ... everything will be OK ... there will be no real changes. If so, why get so nasty about strict DOH instead of looking at other possible solutions?

And another thing. As to fences. The AFA C&B does not provide for fences. So if I were a HP F/A, I would be a little suspicious of those fighting for pure DOH in accordance with the C&B. Since they don't "have" to have fences, who is to say they will agree to any fences for any length of time beyond what may be required for fleet integration, cross-training, etc.?

And finally. Another reason the "Relax -- there will be fences and no rush to PHX" argument falls flat is because the REAL concern is not people invading a base, but LAYOFFS. You can fence all you want to, but if there is a need for layoffs, as U F/As are painfully aware of, system seniority governs. Don't think the HP F/As are stupid enough to not be aware of that little fact.

 

[goodgirl37]

To all the U F/As telling HP F/As "Relax. There will be fences around PHX. Even if there weren't, no one will be rushing from PHL/CLT to PHX."

Doesn't that logic work both ways? Why are you so afraid of some sort of other, non-DOH system? If the HP F/As are supposed to be satisfied by your reassurances, wouldn't it be good enough for you to hear, "Relax. There will be fences around PHL/CLT/etc. No one will be rushing to the East Coast"?

On one level this is kind of a silly argument because the AFA C&B is pretty clear: DOH prevails, and therefore the HP F/As are gonna get screwed and there is not much they can do about it. But I just find it amusing that the U F/As keep telling their HP counterparts to relax ... trust us ... everything will be OK ... there will be no real changes. If so, why get so nasty about strict DOH instead of looking at other possible solutions?

And another thing. As to fences. The AFA C&B does not provide for fences. So if I were a HP F/A, I would be a little suspicious of those fighting for pure DOH in accordance with the C&B. Since they don't "have" to have fences, who is to say they will agree to any fences for any length of time beyond what may be required for fleet integration, cross-training, etc.?

And finally. Another reason the "Relax -- there will be fences and no rush to PHX" argument falls flat is because the REAL concern is not people invading a base, but LAYOFFS. You can fence all you want to, but if there is a need for layoffs, as U F/As are painfully aware of, system seniority governs. Don't think the HP F/As are stupid enough to not be aware of that little fact.

[post="294511"][/post]​

That is what you work for in out world is your seniority for bidding purposed for vacation etc. it is only fair that they do it doh you are hired when you are hired - hell who wouldn't want to come over and gain a couple of years seniority by slotting. That is so ridiculous

 

[FlyUs]

To all the U F/As telling HP F/As "Relax. There will be fences around PHX. Even if there weren't, no one will be rushing from PHL/CLT to PHX."

Doesn't that logic work both ways? Why are you so afraid of some sort of other, non-DOH system? If the HP F/As are supposed to be satisfied by your reassurances, wouldn't it be good enough for you to hear, "Relax. There will be fences around PHL/CLT/etc. No one will be rushing to the East Coast"?

On one level this is kind of a silly argument because the AFA C&B is pretty clear: DOH prevails, and therefore the HP F/As are gonna get screwed and there is not much they can do about it. But I just find it amusing that the U F/As keep telling their HP counterparts to relax ... trust us ... everything will be OK ... there will be no real changes. If so, why get so nasty about strict DOH instead of looking at other possible solutions?

And another thing. As to fences. The AFA C&B does not provide for fences. So if I were a HP F/A, I would be a little suspicious of those fighting for pure DOH in accordance with the C&B. Since they don't "have" to have fences, who is to say they will agree to any fences for any length of time beyond what may be required for fleet integration, cross-training, etc.?

And finally. Another reason the "Relax -- there will be fences and no rush to PHX" argument falls flat is because the REAL concern is not people invading a base, but LAYOFFS. You can fence all you want to, but if there is a need for layoffs, as U F/As are painfully aware of, system seniority governs. Don't think the HP F/As are stupid enough to not be aware of that little fact.

[post="294511"][/post]​

And your point is...

 

[Whatnow?]

Exactly......why should anyone forfeit their hardworking time and dedication they've put in working for any company just to let a more junior employee feel better about what their management team has decided would be best for them. In the end, longevity is what it's all about. Works that way in the 9 to 5 world also! We've given up waay too much, seniority is all we have left!

 

[USAguy97]

I keep asking this and keep getting ridiculed for it, but I'll ask again:

Why, exactly, should a 5 year PHX based HP FA who may hold a line (let's just say--I don't know how much time it takes to hold a line in PHX) suddenly end up sitting reserve behind a 20 year US FA?

If the US group can't see the problem here, my bold prediction is for fences of 5 years or longer.

[post="294314"][/post]​

Clue,

They have a different scheduling system that U has. At Hp you become a lineholder at 2 years. At U you are a reserve for up to 25 years. I know in one of the latest U concessionary contracts there was no longer to be open time and no longer the bid sheet. Well still after the contracted was voted on we still have those things. I hope that we take HPs scheduling because our scheduling hasn't worked for all these years. Why take something that doesn't work? I know that Rob and John are trying to protect so many jobs in PIT, but there is no need to have open trips. I think it is because certain people are trying to Protect the Senior Fa and let them continue have the best of the best. Rob and the Scheduling Committee keep on preaching 20% Reserve, but I think if you built all that time into lines you would see that there isn't enought Flight Attendants to cover all that open time. If I was a manager at U I would want to know that EVERY trip is covered before heading into the next month. You would see that people would fly their trips and that the sick calls proabably wouldn't be that high. Just a thought of course! We gave up things to get every trip covered, but are we getting compensated for these things not being done that was agreed upon?

 

[USAguy97]

To all the U F/As telling HP F/As "Relax. There will be fences around PHX. Even if there weren't, no one will be rushing from PHL/CLT to PHX."

Doesn't that logic work both ways? Why are you so afraid of some sort of other, non-DOH system? If the HP F/As are supposed to be satisfied by your reassurances, wouldn't it be good enough for you to hear, "Relax. There will be fences around PHL/CLT/etc. No one will be rushing to the East Coast"?

On one level this is kind of a silly argument because the AFA C&B is pretty clear: DOH prevails, and therefore the HP F/As are gonna get screwed and there is not much they can do about it. But I just find it amusing that the U F/As keep telling their HP counterparts to relax ... trust us ... everything will be OK ... there will be no real changes. If so, why get so nasty about strict DOH instead of looking at other possible solutions?

And another thing. As to fences. The AFA C&B does not provide for fences. So if I were a HP F/A, I would be a little suspicious of those fighting for pure DOH in accordance with the C&B. Since they don't "have" to have fences, who is to say they will agree to any fences for any length of time beyond what may be required for fleet integration, cross-training, etc.?

And finally. Another reason the "Relax -- there will be fences and no rush to PHX" argument falls flat is because the REAL concern is not people invading a base, but LAYOFFS. You can fence all you want to, but if there is a need for layoffs, as U F/As are painfully aware of, system seniority governs. Don't think the HP F/As are stupid enough to not be aware of that little fact.

[post="294511"][/post]​

Bear,

I think alot of Flight Attendants like myself don't trust the people representing them. The Hp MECP is bringing an agenda item forward at the BOD to change the C&B to not do DOH. Pat Friend has been very suspicious about the whole thing also. Every airline merger within U has been DOH why change that now?

 

[Whatnow?]

The only problem I can see as far as dropping the fences and US F/A's heading west would be when....PHX would grow to the point of adding Europe and Carribbean trips, which in my opinion is WAY down the road, because we don't even have the planes to fly those routes nor planes that can actually fly that far! I'm from the SW region of the country, but I'm not eager to get to PHX to fly Domestic trips only. It's all going to be a matter of flying preference in the end, and most US F/A's have been commuting cross country for years, I really don't think that will change much. JMO I can't really see most of these senior West Coast girls....and I say that loosely.......giving up their Rome's, Venice's, Paris' to fly to Boise! Please!

 

[Zarah]

Both sides agree to fencing, so this seems like a non-issue.

 

[what_a_trip]

To all the U F/As telling HP F/As "Relax. There will be fences around PHX. Even if there weren't, ... Don't think the HP F/As are stupid enough to not be aware of that little fact.

GGGRRRRRR the Bear has growled!

If you are referring to my previous post, I never wrote, “relaxâ€. I was only stating what will probably happen when the dust falls after the merger - based on our past mergers.

In reference to your argument concerning layoffs as a result of the merger, the fact is we don't know that there will be any for AWA attendants. I mean, if we are to have an operational "fence", which management said could be up to two years, quite probably the layoffs during that time will only effect those f/as whose previous airline is decreasing aircraft count (which is occurring right now at the current U).

If I may try to “relax†you; the current U management (in response to our union’s wishes) have been very creative in trimming the f/a roll call by the thousands - from time-limited voluntary furloughs to “buy out†furloughs to resignation with lifetime passes. Since the HP management seems far superior to ours, hopefully the new U will also find positive ways to trim the f/a staff with the least amount of hardship.

I guess I’m telling you all this to try and prevent the worst “fence†of all - the barbed wire kind - ANIMOSITY!

 

[Bear96]

Every airline merger within U has been DOH why change that now?

[post="294553"][/post]​

I'm not (necessarily) advocating that it should be changed. I am just pointing out that under such a policy, (1) the HP F/As are going to get screwed, and so they have every right to speak up about it, and (2) I find it ironic that the U people are fighting so hard to make sure it is NOT changed while at the same time telling the HP folk not to worry. If one group wants something SOOOO badly, there is usually a reason for it which benefits them.

 

[ClueByFour]

Exactly......why should anyone forfeit their hardworking time and dedication they've put in working for any company just to let a more junior employee feel better about what their management team has decided would be best for them.

"Junior" is relative. A 10 year employee at HP probably has a pretty good line going. Why (without fences) should they be forced to give that up?

In the end, longevity is what it's all about. Works that way in the 9 to 5 world also!

[post="294543"][/post]​

If you think that's the way it works in the 9 to 5 world, you are tragically mistaken.

The only thing I've ever had decided by "seniority" in the 9 to 5 world is who gets the window cube (that was not already taken by a group lead or manager).

 

[Travelpro72]

With DOH clearly written what is the big question? If HP were merging with a company much more junior and were AFA would the issue still be the same as today? If the merger were not with US and with another carrier instead what would the seniority integration be? It is cut, dry and not a secret that AFA has ALWAYS used DOH. Now that two companies that were destined to merge with "someone" and not stand alone are merging, all this is hitting the fan? Didn't anyone tell folks at HP that that is how seniority is handled? Again, I just started my 8th year at US and I'm quite sure that there are plenty at HP senior to me. Not EVERYONE at US is 25 years. There are a whole bunch of us in the 7 to 10 year on reserve forever range. It is what it is and we will all gain a little and lose a little. Opinions are one thing, reality is another. We will get it done one way or another and set up for some @#% whippin.

 

[Whatnow?]

"Junior" is relative. A 10 year employee at HP probably has a pretty good line going. Why (without fences) should they be forced to give that up?
If you think that's the way it works in the 9 to 5 world, you are tragically mistaken.

Because we have already given that up! Fair is Fair! 17-23 years back on RSV as of September all over the US system! And in the 9 to 5 world it may not be called "Seniority" but I'm pretty sure it's called "Longevity"! The only thing I'm saying here it that DOH is the ONLY fair way to play this out for ALL involved!

 

[N109UW]

I'm not (necessarily) advocating that it should be changed. I am just pointing out that under such a policy, (1) the HP F/As are going to get screwed, and so they have every right to speak up about it, and (2) I find it ironic that the U people are fighting so hard to make sure it is NOT changed while at the same time telling the HP folk not to worry. If one group wants something SOOOO badly, there is usually a reason for it which benefits them.

[post="294578"][/post]​

What all the talk of getting rid of the DOH fpr merging seniority. What amazes me is that we all knew this was in the C&B. I guess HP should have looked for a junior airline to merge with. This is exactly what happened with the pilots at United, when US was talking merger with them. The onltydifference, the pilots had seats on the BOD and could veto a merger. Boy am I glad that never went through. Anyway, I just think it is funny when I doubt that the AFA MEC is going to change the bylaws now. Maybe they can do it for the next merger.

 

[cltflyguy]

Well i figure they are probably trying to figure out what to do/change DOH
when one company has f/as out on furlough and would be more senior
to the most junior of the company that your being merged with. You figure
US has alittle over 1500 that are furloughed and i dont' think it specifically says
what to do in the bylaws other than DOH when you have a situation
like that. someone correct me if im wrong.