LGA Fleet Service
Veteran
Stock Clerks Need Luv Too! said:
The previous offer? They wanted to outsource 24 stations in the second 'proposal' they made.
The TWU isn't about to give up the dues harvesting income from 24 stations.
The previous offer? They wanted to outsource 24 stations in the second 'proposal' they made.
The TWU isn't about to give up the dues harvesting income from 24 stations.
The Southwest fuselage cracks are very recently history and I am pleased to see that SW management brought that work back in the form of "phase checks". However, I don't think it is very smart to grant a concession EXPLICITLY allowing four lines of work to be done on foreign soil while AMFA, TWU, IAM, and Teamsters are all on the record condemning the practice citing reasons of safety and the negative impact on the A@P profession in this country; this takes hipocracy to a whole new level. Also, Southwest has outsourced since it's inception.
The main point of my previous post was to point out that it appears that this is cost neutral and will not increase SW maintenance costs. They are offering raises in exchange for the right to farm out work overseas where rates of pay and benefits are significantly lower than those paid in domestic hackshops.
BTW, there are still ramp people on layoff, although they could have had a spot if they were willing to move, but they are still legally on furlough. AA ramp is NOT at top dollar, like you, we are #2 behind Southwest. But your claim that ramp at AA makes what it does at the expense of mechanics has been PROVEN false at NWA. AMFA types (such as yourself) at NWA made these claims at NWA when IAM represented both the AMT/related and ramp. As a result of a totally ineffectual strike, the AMFA AGREED to AMT payrates at NW have been at the absolute bottom for 3 1/2 years now and the AMFA reps are now on their knees begging the strikebreakers to join and pay dues telling them if they do that "all will be forgiven". Yet the NWA rampers are still there making only a couple dollars an hour less than before bankruptcy. What transpired at NWA sends your theory to hell forever. As I have stated before, I myself want ramp to be separate from the AMTs. So get your card drive going.
That's certainly how WN is spinning the tentative agreement:
Southwest's philosophy continues to be high wages and high productivity, combining for relatively low labor costs. I doubt the AA TWU members (as a whole) would agree to exchange enough jobs for substantially higher wages, but I've been wrong before.
AA ramp is NOT at top dollar, like you, we are #2 behind Southwest. But your claim that ramp at AA makes what it does at the expense of mechanics has been PROVEN false at NWA
Ramp should be a lot less than mechanics. Mechanics have to go to school to learn their trade, but ramp just needs to know how to pick up a suitcase or a piece of mail and put it on an airplane. The ramp people at all airlines are paid way too much and this needs to be addressed in the future. Pay the people that have to use their knowledge for what they do, like the Pilots, F/A's, Mechanics, and Customer Service Agents.
Ramp should be a lot less than mechanics. Mechanics have to go to school to learn their trade, but ramp just needs to know how to pick up a suitcase or a piece of mail and put it on an airplane. The ramp people at all airlines are paid way too much and this needs to be addressed in the future. Pay the people that have to use their knowledge for what they do, like the Pilots, F/A's, Mechanics, and Customer Service Agents.
Remember....you get what you pay for. Back in the 80's I worked for a ramp company while goint to A/P school and it paid $6 per hr......you should have seen the stuff disapearing from the bags, breakrooms, and parking lot....guys would hire on and never show up after aweek or so, bags/frieght/mail would misconnect,get lost or wind up at the wrong airline...If you pay your people well, treat them with respect and LISTEN to them when they have an idea about the operation (instead of paying millions to a consulting group to tell management how to earn thier own paycheck), you might put together a decent group of people who care about the product they put forth.
I agree with what yau are saying, but ramp should be the lowest paid of the above mentioned. They can be replaced without a lot of training that the other groups need. Anyone with a strong back can do the job.
Get off your high horse, your two years of schooling does not mean squat to me. I work with employees with four year degrees. I myself have three years of schooling. But I go where the money is, and it happens to be at AA. So when you talk about your higher education, remember
there are a lot of individuals that work for this company are smarter than you.
P.S. if you think you are worth more get another job.
cafecubano
Newbie
- Jul 17, 2008
- 8
- 0
i use to be a stock clerk, for more than 15 years i've been an a/c mechanic. Fact is if you want to make more money,move up in life you have to go to school to get your a/p license to apply for a higher paying position.
P.S. I knew I wanted more so I got another job (a/c mechanic).
AA employees are for the most part very productive. We(along with the other legacies) lack the built in advantages of a Southwest type organization such as single fleet type and the associated cost advantages of training, inventory, and utilization. However, there are some other elements of Southwest that must be examined as well. First, their benefits are different from AA. I went to the dentist and after the dental work was performed, I spoke to the receptionist. We were discussing the dental benefits of the different airlines. She told me that AA dental benefits were superior to those of Southwest. Pensions- AA has defined benefit plans, meaning you get a "guaranteed" amount for life after retirement (assuming no chapter 11). Southwest has defined contribution plans (401Ks). If a Southwest employee invests poorly or the market tanks- they loose. I wonder how many Southwest retirees and those close to retirement have been devastated by the sharp downturn in the markets. Once Southwest provides the contribution to the 401k, their hands are clean of any further obligation. AA on the other hand, has to guarantee the benefit. When the market tanks, AA has to fork in cash to make up the difference. What do you prefer? A guaranteed fixed payment for life or an individual account with unknowns? Retiree medical, AA employees (if enrolled in prefunding) get the benefit for life (up to a certain amount). Southwest employees (at least ramp) have to bank unused sick time when they retire to get retirement medical for a fixed amount of time. The more sick time they have accumulated, they more they can buy; but there is a limit to how much they can buy and the employee will most likely outlive the limit. If injury or illness causes a WN employee to burn his or her sick time just before retirement, they are pretty much $crewed. When a Southwest employee retires Southwest has no more obligation to them. When an AA employee retires, AA is still on the hook for the remainder of the employee's life with respect to pensions and retiree benefits (up to a certain amount).Scope- Excluding aircraft maintenance, WN has better scope due to their markets and scheduling. Pay- WN is the highest paying now, but this has not always been the case. Their very rapid growth has allowed for the highest rates for the most senior because the large amount of new hires brings the average wage rate down. This combined with the fact that they outsource most of their aircraft heavy overhaul allows the senior people to be paid the highest wage rates.
All AA employees can have SW pay rates. But they would have to adopt SW style benefits (or lack thereof) along with scope and work rules. And AA would have to dramatically simplify fleet commonality. Ironically, it is AA's legacy competitors that should be paying WN wages given the fact that pensions were wiped out, retiree medical all but ended, and heavy maintenance outsourced. They are the ones who should be screaming the loudest about having WN wages. These other legacies would also need to dramatically simplify their fleets.
Ramp IS the lowest paid and can not be replaced as easily as you think.
In your other post you compared us to aircraft mechanics, which is rediculous. Aircraft mechanics should definately make more and they in fact do. I saw their payscale a while back and if I remember correctly they start from about $15 to $16 an hour full time and top out at about $34 an hour in 5 years. No shortage of applications for this position at AA. The ramps contractual starting rate of pay at AA is $8/hr and change PART TIME (4 or 5 hours a day)for about 2 years. AA could not get people to work for that; even here in MIA; they had to raise it to $10 and change an hour and they still had problems getting people. $10/hr to start, first couple years part time and then 12 YEARS to top out at $22/hr; which is about $42,000/year; hardly being overpaid. But if you feel we are overpaid, I suggest you write your congressman and have him introduce a bill to bring back slavery; because AA is having a difficult time finding people to fill this job who can pass the background check and drug tests. Also, we have to be trained in hazardous goods as well as new hires having to be trained for the job itself. When new hires first hit the ramp, they are clueless. Some of them, after working the first 757 to PAP, walk out the door never to return. It would be quite a spectacle to see AA try to replace 21,000 of us; just getting through the mandatory airport security and drivers classes would be the biggest circus this world has ever seen let alone trying to process 21,000 airport IDs and customs seals (which can take up to 2 months).
Many of us on the ramp have higher education in one field or another. On the ramp I have worked with a judge, an attorney, an accountant, teacher, an A&P, a cop, a former airline pilot just to name a few. Some do this job for the flexibility and benefits offered.
They wont be, they will go to TWU represented Eagle.
Not true. AA has the potential to make even more money with its OH operations. The fact that AA has kept ample OH facilities could put it in a very advantageous position. As the FAA comes under pressure to have stricter oversight of the whole industry those airlines that ship their work overseas will likely come under more pressure to bring their work back stateside. I've heard some horror stories about the staffing of Jet-Blues South American contractor. This will increase demand for maintenance and drive up competitors costs. AA has the facilities in place. So AA could easily pay us what SWA pays their mechanics.
PS, dont bother with SWdriver, he just likes to come here to stir things up. He certainly doesnt speak for mechanics.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 7,550
- 3,731
All other arguements aside...
What is the status of the super session negotiations?
Wasn't the plan to negotiate through December 8th and then if no agreement reached file mutually for mediation?
Why the secret now?
What is the status of the super session negotiations?
Wasn't the plan to negotiate through December 8th and then if no agreement reached file mutually for mediation?
Why the secret now?
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,916
- 9,360
Thanks for the very informative post on WN benefits. I've inferred as much in the past when discussing WN wages with Bob, but never had this much detail available.
When you compare benefits for both active and retirees, it's almost as bad as comparing the obligations that GM and Toyota have with their respective workgroups.
In the past AA had offered to give the TWU WN's pay but with their workrules and benefits. It's probably not out of the question to try and ask for the same now.
Stock Clerks Need Luv Too!
Newbie
- Aug 14, 2008
- 11
- 0
I belive the super session ends at midnight on Saturday Dec. 13.
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