"Super Session" Negotiations

[heckle and jyde]

A few thoughts here. It has become more dificult to get an AOA badge from many local airports. Every time AA has tried to hire rampers in my AA station they have to interview about 40 people to hope for 5 because most cannot get a badge to wrkon the ramp with there criminal records. Another thing is every time i see the Mechanics attempt to fix an airplane the have to either call tulsa tech, plac card it, or go to the glove box and get out the owners mannual. I think AA could save lots of money by joining AAA and have them replace tiers and lights that it seems that all some of the mech. are capable of doing.

 

[bigdawg52]

I belive the super session ends at midnight on Saturday Dec. 13.

You are right they were sceduled from Dec. 2 thru the eighth but could be extended till Dec. 13.

 

[aafsc]

A few thoughts here. It has become more dificult to get an AOA badge from many local airports. Every time AA has tried to hire rampers in my AA station they have to interview about 40 people to hope for 5 because most cannot get a badge to wrkon the ramp with there criminal records. Another thing is every time i see the Mechanics attempt to fix an airplane the have to either call tulsa tech, plac card it, or go to the glove box and get out the owners mannual. I think AA could save lots of money by joining AAA and have them replace tiers and lights that it seems that all some of the mech. are capable of doing.

In MIA, I was told the last time they hired they needed 50 and was only able to get 5. Not only can the AOA badge be difficult to obtain; but the customs seal can be even more difficult to get.

 

[heckle and jyde]

i forgot about the customs seal. took me 3 months in dfw to get one and i have never been arrested

 

[aafsc]

Not true. AA has the potential to make even more money with its OH operations. The fact that AA has kept ample OH facilities could put it in a very advantageous position. As the FAA comes under pressure to have stricter oversight of the whole industry those airlines that ship their work overseas will likely come under more pressure to bring their work back stateside. I've heard some horror stories about the staffing of Jet-Blues South American contractor. This will increase demand for maintenance and drive up competitors costs. AA has the facilities in place. So AA could easily pay us what SWA pays their mechanics.

PS, dont bother with SWdriver, he just likes to come here to stir things up. He certainly doesnt speak for mechanics.

Bob, your statement would be true but only if several variables were to happen.

1. The FAA would have to basically force our competitors to do overhaul domestically. Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever happen.

2. Even if it did, would they send their aircraft to AA or to the Timcos and the AARs?

3. Would AA be able to get enough business to get full utilization of all the facilities (thus lowering fixed costs per unit to the smallest number possible) while being productive enough to keep the variable costs at the optimum point on the variable cost curve?

4. Would our competitors just decide to start doing their own maintenance again? Would they want to incur all the set up costs (hangars, equipment, AMTs, management, clerical, and support staff)?

If the FAA decided to force them to bring the work back to the states and they decided to send the work to AA instead of the Timcos or doing it themselves and if all the cost accounting were to work out, then you would be correct. Optimal productivity in terms of fixed and variable costs combined with much less down time by overhauling them quicker (example AA's super 80s) and fewer or no post overhaul problems results in greater value for potential customers because the recently overhauled aircraft gets back in the air much sooner thus producing revenue. I would imagine someone at AA has a spreadsheet somewhere.

AA has advertised it's maintenance capability at MRO trade shows and has it's own MRO website. So it seems that they are trying to get the business but the results have been less than stellar. Perhaps they overestimated how much business they could get and obtained the old Delta hangar at DFW (DWH) prematurely. Just what AA needs, excess fixed overhead costs in the form of an empty hangar while they shrink their fleet and the hoped for MRO business never materialized; another poor management decision.

 

[chris perry]

Bob, your statement would be true but only if several variables were to happen.

1. The FAA would have to basically force our competitors to do overhaul domestically. Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever happen.

2. Even if it did, would they send their aircraft to AA or to the Timcos and the AARs?

3. Would AA be able to get enough business to get full utilization of all the facilities (thus lowering fixed costs per unit to the smallest number possible) while being productive enough to keep the variable costs at the optimum point on the variable cost curve?

4. Would our competitors just decide to start doing their own maintenance again? Would they want to incur all the set up costs (hangars, equipment, AMTs, management, clerical, and support staff)?

If the FAA decided to force them to bring the work back to the states and they decided to send the work to AA instead of the Timcos or doing it themselves and if all the cost accounting were to work out, then you would be correct. Optimal productivity in terms of fixed and variable costs combined with much less down time by overhauling them quicker (example AA's super 80s) and fewer or no post overhaul problems results in greater value for potential customers because the recently overhauled aircraft gets back in the air much sooner thus producing revenue. I would imagine someone at AA has a spreadsheet somewhere.

AA has advertised it's maintenance capability at MRO trade shows and has it's own MRO website. So it seems that they are trying to get the business but the results have been less than stellar. Perhaps they overestimated how much business they could get and obtained the old Delta hangar at DFW (DWH) prematurely. Just what AA needs, excess fixed overhead costs in the form of an empty hangar while they shrink their fleet and the hoped for MRO business never materialized; another poor management decision.

 

[Jager]

Another thing is every time i see the Mechanics attempt to fix an airplane the have to either call tulsa tech, plac card it, or go to the glove box and get out the owners mannual. I think AA could save lots of money by joining AAA and have them replace tiers and lights that it seems that all some of the mech. are capable of doing.

What the heck?

I’ve been an AMT for 26 years and I think we need to clarify our primary function on days and afternoon shifts..

We are in the business of moving tin.. Airplanes don’t make money on the gnd.

The chronological order of performing aircraft maintenance is

#1: Placard the system if a delay will be incur if we take the time to repair the discrepancy..

#2: Call Tulsa Tech for mel and authorization numbers so the log book can be legally released for flight... The airplane goes nowhere without a legal logbook…

#3: If repairs are required, the FAA “nowâ€￾ requires us to print the excerpt from the maintenance manual and have it on hand even though we can perform the required maintenance with our eyes closed…


I can't speak for everyone but a 22% paycut doesn't help things either..

 

[Birdman]

Thanks for the very informative post on WN benefits. I've inferred as much in the past when discussing WN wages with Bob, but never had this much detail available.

When you compare benefits for both active and retirees, it's almost as bad as comparing the obligations that GM and Toyota have with their respective workgroups.

In the past AA had offered to give the TWU WN's pay but with their workrules and benefits. It's probably not out of the question to try and ask for the same now.

------------------------ WN------------------------------------AA-------------------------------------

Holidays----------10 days with 2 floaters--------------5 days

Vacation----------4 wks after 10 yrs-------------------3 wks after 10 yrs
---------------------5 wks after 18 yrs ------------------4 wks after 18 yrs

Sickleave---------2000 hrs max. at full pay-----------1200 hrs. max. 1/2 pay first 2 days per occurance

Retirement-------7.3% max. match---------------------Company provided

Profitsharing-----3% max.--------------------------------0%

Pay------------------$38.97 hr.-----------------------------$32.20
----------------------+$1.30 max. senority (12 yrs.)-----0% senority
----------------------+$.56 shift or $.63 shift-------------+$.01 shift or +$.02 shift

Overtime----------1.5 and 2.0-----------------------------1.5 (.5 on holiday)

Stock options----600 shares per year--------------------0 shares per year

Healthcare--------No cost (basic plan)--------------------$202 mo. (emp. +2)



Eric, I'll take WN's package and I promise to work harder. BTW, WN TA'd contract will add 10% over 4 yrs. + bonus +productivity.

 

[Hackman]

The Southwest fuselage cracks are very recently history and I am pleased to see that SW management brought that work back in the form of "phase checks". However, I don't think it is very smart to grant a concession EXPLICITLY allowing four lines of work to be done on foreign soil while AMFA, TWU, IAM, and Teamsters are all on the record condemning the practice citing reasons of safety and the negative impact on the A@P profession in this country; this takes hipocracy to a whole new level. Also, Southwest has outsourced since it's inception.

The main point of my previous post was to point out that it appears that this is cost neutral and will not increase SW maintenance costs. They are offering raises in exchange for the right to farm out work overseas where rates of pay and benefits are significantly lower than those paid in domestic hackshops.

BTW, there are still ramp people on layoff, although they could have had a spot if they were willing to move, but they are still legally on furlough. AA ramp is NOT at top dollar, like you, we are #2 behind Southwest. But your claim that ramp at AA makes what it does at the expense of mechanics has been PROVEN false at NWA. AMFA types (such as yourself) at NWA made these claims at NWA when IAM represented both the AMT/related and ramp. As a result of a totally ineffectual strike, the AMFA AGREED to AMT payrates at NW have been at the absolute bottom for 3 1/2 years now and the AMFA reps are now on their knees begging the strikebreakers to join and pay dues telling them if they do that "all will be forgiven". Yet the NWA rampers are still there making only a couple dollars an hour less than before bankruptcy. What transpired at NWA sends your theory to hell forever. As I have stated before, I myself want ramp to be separate from the AMTs. So get your card drive going.

Where do you get your information aafsc? Where does it state SWA will be allowed to "EXPLICITLY" send out four lines of work to foreign soil? You must have a delusional ramper crystal ball, because the details of the AMFA/SWA agreement have not been released as of yet. Of course, your hoping AMFA would have agreed to to this, and if you can prove it, i'm sure we would all like to see the language. Please post it for us. Rumors do not count.

If there are AA rampers on layoff it's by there own choice, they refused to move. The AA AMT's on furlough have not been given that choice. So therefore like I stated, AA rampers have all been recalled, or given that option. The twu will always be a ramper union, as evidenced by the twu's past and present actions.

Now getting to NWA and the iam scabs you so love. The ONLY reason the iam scabs have what they do today is because they ASSISTED Dougie Stealin' and his henchmen break the strike. Rewarded for performing struck work and scabbing for the company is nothing to be proud of. Now, with DAL coming in and being non-union, the iam might just get what they gave... a boot in the arse. We shall see. In addition, you state AMFA is "begging" scabs to join the union. I ask again where you get your information, and please post it for all to see, (your iam scab informants do not count). AMFA is bound by the RLA as the union on the property, I don't like it, but those are the rules. Your joy in seeing a union busted with assistance from the NMB and a scab union like the iam is deplorable, but it's expected from you. The outcome would have been much different if AMFA would have walked at the slightest hint of NWA management hiring scabs a year in advance. This of course would be termed as a wildcat strike and illegal per the RLA, but since the company didn't play by the rules, it should have been the action taken.

Your wish is the same as mine, to be separated from rampers like you forever. Of course there are many on the ramp that are honorable, I'm speaking to ones like you, with no morals. We tried in 2005 dump the twu, but the twu assisted management stopping the vote by lying to the NMB about the numbers, no surprise. With the next twu sellout on the horizon, another card drive will hopefully be in the works. I'll take the Girl Scout Union to replace what we have now, which is nothing but a dues collection agency, non-leadership made up of a bunch of punks, drunks, and cowards. Being rid of the twu would be a dream come true to be sure.

I'll be waiting for the facts on SWA and the sources, because right now, you have posted nothing but lies and rumors.

 

[Jager]

Hackman..

Read it!! It's in black and white....

http://amfanational.org/index.php?option=c...0&Itemid=39

 

[aafsc]

Thanks for the very informative post on WN benefits. I've inferred as much in the past when discussing WN wages with Bob, but never had this much detail available.

When you compare benefits for both active and retirees, it's almost as bad as comparing the obligations that GM and Toyota have with their respective workgroups.

In the past AA had offered to give the TWU WN's pay but with their workrules and benefits. It's probably not out of the question to try and ask for the same now.

I agree. AA should just grab a copy of Southwest's contracts and replace the words Southwest Airlines with American Airlines and do the same with the corresponding union.

 

[aafsc]

Hackman..

Read it!! It's in black and white....

http://amfanational.org/index.php?option=c...0&Itemid=39

Thanks for posting this. Seems EXPLICIT enough to me. AMFA went on and on about the "dangers" of outsourcing to third world countries then turns around and in EXPLICIT contract language allows 4 lines worth to go to the third world in exchange for a few pieces of silver; all while being cost neutral to the company.

 

[Vortilon]

A few thoughts here. It has become more dificult to get an AOA badge from many local airports. Every time AA has tried to hire rampers in my AA station they have to interview about 40 people to hope for 5 because most cannot get a badge to wrkon the ramp with there criminal records. Another thing is every time i see the Mechanics attempt to fix an airplane the have to either call tulsa tech, plac card it, or go to the glove box and get out the owners mannual. I think AA could save lots of money by joining AAA and have them replace tiers and lights that it seems that all some of the mech. are capable of doing.

When you're ignorant as to how line maintenance functions as you obviously are, best you keep your thoughts to yourself. A long time ago, my boss told me: "we are in the airplane flying business, not the airplane fixing business - call tech service, and stand on their neck until they give you deferral authorization". Hopefully, this might shed a little light on the subject for you. BTW how is it you can spell lights but not tires? :huh:

 

[aafsc]

Where do you get your information aafsc? Where does it state SWA will be allowed to "EXPLICITLY" send out four lines of work to foreign soil? You must have a delusional ramper crystal ball, because the details of the AMFA/SWA agreement have not been released as of yet. Of course, your hoping AMFA would have agreed to to this, and if you can prove it, i'm sure we would all like to see the language. Please post it for us. Rumors do not count.

If there are AA rampers on layoff it's by there own choice, they refused to move. The AA AMT's on furlough have not been given that choice. So therefore like I stated, AA rampers have all been recalled, or given that option. The twu will always be a ramper union, as evidenced by the twu's past and present actions.

Now getting to NWA and the iam scabs you so love. The ONLY reason the iam scabs have what they do today is because they ASSISTED Dougie Stealin' and his henchmen break the strike. Rewarded for performing struck work and scabbing for the company is nothing to be proud of. Now, with DAL coming in and being non-union, the iam might just get what they gave... a boot in the arse. We shall see. In addition, you state AMFA is "begging" scabs to join the union. I ask again where you get your information, and please post it for all to see, (your iam scab informants do not count). AMFA is bound by the RLA as the union on the property, I don't like it, but those are the rules. Your joy in seeing a union busted with assistance from the NMB and a scab union like the iam is deplorable, but it's expected from you. The outcome would have been much different if AMFA would have walked at the slightest hint of NWA management hiring scabs a year in advance. This of course would be termed as a wildcat strike and illegal per the RLA, but since the company didn't play by the rules, it should have been the action taken.

Your wish is the same as mine, to be separated from rampers like you forever. Of course there are many on the ramp that are honorable, I'm speaking to ones like you, with no morals. We tried in 2005 dump the twu, but the twu assisted management stopping the vote by lying to the NMB about the numbers, no surprise. With the next twu sellout on the horizon, another card drive will hopefully be in the works. I'll take the Girl Scout Union to replace what we have now, which is nothing but a dues collection agency, non-leadership made up of a bunch of punks, drunks, and cowards. Being rid of the twu would be a dream come true to be sure.

I'll be waiting for the facts on SWA and the sources, because right now, you have posted nothing but lies and rumors.

Agreed that rampers could have had a job if they were willing to relocate; but they can remain on the street and await recall to where they were laid off from; thus they are "legally" on layoff status.

IAM scabs at NW? While some former IAM members crossed, I thought the majority were people like PTO who were from the hack shops and were always anti-union to begin with. Also, there were the very vocal AMFA organizers who crossed.

As for what AMFA should have done while training the scabs; your right, a wild cat would have been illegal (although we did do this at EAL). What they should have done is explored the legal options available to them at the time; they could have done informational picketing; maybe a media campaign, or perhaps a work to rule; or all the above. They should have tried something instead of doing nothing.

Concerning my "sources" on the AMFA "begging" these are from various relevant websites visited over a period time; no reason not to believe them. A local needs money to operate; and since joining AMFA is no longer required at NWA and the vast majority of AMTs are strike breakers; it is logical to assume that dues at best are very minimal which compels the solicitation of dues (revenue) from new sources (scabs).

 

[The Foreigner]

every time i see the Mechanics attempt to fix an airplane the have to either call tulsa tech, plac card it, or go to the glove box and get out the owners manual. I think AA could save lots of money by joining AAA and have them replace tiers and lights that it seems that all some of the mech. are capable of doing.

ROTFLMAO . Oh no not another know nothing village idiot, If you would have got your GED, and learned to read more than city codes, you might have known that any work on the A/C that effects ETOPS or any other CAT/LMP system, mx control has to be notified. Plus all write ups now need to have a AMM ref in the sign off. Even the silly ones like " I can't get the locks up in the fwd hold" or "the power won't come on in the cargo hold"{ open the door all the way...ijit}

I won't say all/most rampers are dumber than a box of rocks, but some of you don't seem to know the whole story. You seem to be one of those.

Just ask an AMT, if you want to know whats going on, we will talk to you!