"Super Session" Negotiations

[restore03]

Bob, good luck on refereeing. I think there are some here hellbent on blaming fleet.
As you stated, for those of us who know where the real problem lies, it's gonna
take solidarity to get back what we have lost. And to the company plants who troll
these sites, keep the humor coming, laughter truly is the best medicine.

 

[aafsc]

The TWU allows Ack's, ECO's and SIC's to be done by foreign workers and counts it as being done "in house"-thus allowing the company to contract out more. They do this because they claim they are AA workers, but they are not part of our contract.

A few years back we used to ship our engines to foreign lands for Overhaul as well (Canada?). They brought the work back in house because the quality was poor and the costs were high, our guys did it better and cheaper.

But to think that mechanics were the only victims or that Fleet workers benifited from our decline would be a mistake. Fleet workers start as low as $8/hr, they've obviously taken big hits too.


The fact is that the TWU has not done a good job for Mechanics or FSCs (nor anyone else on the property) and maybe instead of throwing barbs at each other we should see what we can do about changing that. How about it aafsc and Hackman?

I'm ready to put this debate to rest. But you bring up the interesting situation regarding mechanics who are AA AMT employees in other countries. Is it possible that they could be brought into the same union as the domestic AA AMTs whether it is the TWU or AMFA? I believe that UAL had/has some overseas based F/As that are in the same union as their domestic F/As. Would this violate any laws of the involved countries as far as AMTs go? What about the differences in currency and living standards?

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm ready to put this debate to rest. But you bring up the interesting situation regarding mechanics who are AA AMT employees in other countries. Is it possible that they could be brought into the same union as the domestic AA AMTs whether it is the TWU or AMFA? I believe that UAL had/has some overseas based F/As that are in the same union as their domestic F/As. Would this violate any laws of the involved countries as far as AMTs go? What about the differences in currency and living standards?

I dont see why they (I beleieve they employ workers in other classifications as well)) couldnt be brought in but I suspect that what would make it difficult is that some of our contractual languange would be considered substandard or even oppressive compared to the higher standards that many countries have regarding workers rights. Our vacation allotment of just five days a year for the first five years is nowhere near the standard mandated throughout most of Europe(its not even close to what most workers get in this country), our Holidays, sick time and disability are pretty much the same way-substandard. Some workers, such as those in England, who didnt take the cuts we did in 2003, would actually have to take a huge cut in pay and benifits if they were brought into our contract.

I dont know of any laws preventing US based unions from organizing Internationally, after all many of them infer that they are International unions , International Brotherhood of Teamsters, International Association of Machinists, and the top echelon of our union is called "The International". Currency conversions shouldnt be a problem as the company has to deal with that on a regular basis anyway. Living standards have never been a consideration, if it was good enough for Tulsa and DFW then it was considered good enough for everyone else.

 

[Hopeful]

I dont know of any laws preventing US based unions from organizing Internationally, after all many of them infer that they are International unions , International Brotherhood of Teamsters, International Association of Machinists, and the top echelon of our union is called "The International". Currency conversions shouldnt be a problem as the company has to deal with that on a regular basis anyway. Living standards have never been a consideration, if it was good enough for Tulsa and DFW then it was considered good enough for everyone else.

I could picture the TWU being the dominant union in the EU where entire countries shut down when one union walks off the job.

 

[Hackman]

The TWU allows Ack's, ECO's and SIC's to be done by foreign workers and counts it as being done "in house"-thus allowing the company to contract out more. They do this because they claim they are AA workers, but they are not part of our contract.

A few years back we used to ship our engines to foreign lands for Overhaul as well (Canada?). They brought the work back in house because the quality was poor and the costs were high, our guys did it better and cheaper.

But to think that mechanics were the only victims or that Fleet workers benifited from our decline would be a mistake. Fleet workers start as low as $8/hr, they've obviously taken big hits too.


The fact is that the TWU has not done a good job for Mechanics or FSCs (nor anyone else on the property) and maybe instead of throwing barbs at each other we should see what we can do about changing that. How about it aafsc and Hackman?

I'd say the twu has done far better for the rampers than they have for us Bob, if you can call what the twu does "better". As i'm sure you know Bob, the line mechanics issues with the twu are on the back burner at the line stations because we are outnumbered so greatly by the ramp. Just one of the many problems being an AMT in the worthless twu. Case in point, an OSM starts at $8.89, but has more responsiblity and is subject to drug tests. The ramper starts for the same money, less responsibility, and then enjoys a joint and a beer for lunch. (and yes, I have seen it....and no... I'm not saying all of them do).

This is the issue Bob. Rampers and stock clerks in the twu have no vote or voice in our AMT work group, they have NO say in what union we support or do not. Yet, I have had stock clerks and rampers yelling, screaming, threatening harm, putting up derogatory flyers, and protesting ( the twu Internationals' stock clerk spokesmodel comes to mind) about how AMFA will do this and won't do that. To me, this is the same as an AMT getting up in a pilots or F/A's face and telling them about what union or issue they should support or not.

AMT's have NO skin in their game, AMT's have NO voice in their game, and they more than likely in a forceful manner tell us to go PACK IT UP OUR ___ to put it mildly. I don't recall, but I can't imagine the AA AMT's deriding and badmouthing the AA F/A's when they dumped the twu for the APFA way back when. The AMT group would have not a thing to say to them about it.....nothing. Maybe a "Sorry to see you go...good luck" is about it.

Now is this being elitist? Is this divisive? Is this point being made that we want to "tear down the rampers or stock clerks" and wish them harm? NO!!!! They can have all the twu they want, it's all yours folks, good luck. Just don't tell me about my career choices, or what opinions I should have, or how I should vote. I can make up my own mind without any ramper or stock clerks unwanted opinions. However, it's far more that just a simple opinion though, it's all the hate and threats that goes along with it. They have no skin in my game, so their opinions mean nothing, and should be kept to themselves.

I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

BTW Bob, congrats on your officer position......I guess. h34r:

 

[Hackman]

I could picture the TWU being the dominant union in the EU where entire countries shut down when one union walks off the job.

I can't picture the twu being dominant in anything, not with company man Jimmy at the helm.

 

[aafsc]

I dont see why they (I beleieve they employ workers in other classifications as well)) couldnt be brought in but I suspect that what would make it difficult is that some of our contractual languange would be considered substandard or even oppressive compared to the higher standards that many countries have regarding workers rights. Our vacation allotment of just five days a year for the first five years is nowhere near the standard mandated throughout most of Europe(its not even close to what most workers get in this country), our Holidays, sick time and disability are pretty much the same way-substandard. Some workers, such as those in England, who didnt take the cuts we did in 2003, would actually have to take a huge cut in pay and benifits if they were brought into our contract.

I dont know of any laws preventing US based unions from organizing Internationally, after all many of them infer that they are International unions , International Brotherhood of Teamsters, International Association of Machinists, and the top echelon of our union is called "The International". Currency conversions shouldnt be a problem as the company has to deal with that on a regular basis anyway. Living standards have never been a consideration, if it was good enough for Tulsa and DFW then it was considered good enough for everyone else.

Bob, what you say is true with respect to Europe. I was thinking more in terms of Latin America; where the standards of living and currency are far below those of the US. Europe's distance and location with respect to the US, along with time zone and marketing considerations, allow AA to schedule their aircraft for a quick turn back to the US. This is not the case in Latin America. With Latin America, the aircraft have to spend the nights (or days in the case of deep south- EZE,SCL,GRU, GIG) on the ground due to the same distance, time zone, and/or marketing requirements. In LHR, I believe they allow 1 or 2 planes to overnight there for maintenance even though they could easily send it/them right back to the US. In South America, the planes sit for a long time out of necessity; its just good business sense for AA to utilize the down time wisely by performing maintenance on them. Additionally, as a condition for agreeing to let AA take over EALs Latin routes, the Latin governments demanded that AA take all the EAL Latin based employees; the same scenario occurred when AA purchased TWA's LHR rights. By my count, AA overnights anywhere between 16-20 aircraft depending on high or low season in South America alone; this count does not include those which overnight in Mexico, Central America, or the Caribbean. Although there are some differences between the US and Europe as you point out, both are first world, the same can not be said of Latin America. Is it possible for the AA Latin American based AMTs to be in the same union as the AA domestic AMTs? Would those governments permit a "yanqui" union to operate on their soil? Would it violate any of their national laws? I believe Chile permitted the AFA to represent UA F/As based in Chile (although UA closed that base when they stopped flying to SCL years ago), but would others permit US based unions to represent their citizens? The fact that some unions have the word "international" in their titles mean nothing; it is just a title to make them appear bigger than they really are. And finally what about the differences in living standards? Even you have to admit the living standards are much higher in TUL and DFW than they are in Latin America.

BTW What position did you win? I went to your local website and could find nothing. Congratulations on what ever it is that you won.

 

[aafsc]

I'd say the twu has done far better for the rampers than they have for us Bob, if you can call what the twu does "better". As i'm sure you know Bob, the line mechanics issues with the twu are on the back burner at the line stations because we are outnumbered so greatly by the ramp. Just one of the many problems being an AMT in the worthless twu. Case in point, an OSM starts at $8.89, but has more responsiblity and is subject to drug tests. The ramper starts for the same money, less responsibility, and then enjoys a joint and a beer for lunch. (and yes, I have seen it....and no... I'm not saying all of them do).

This is the issue Bob. Rampers and stock clerks in the twu have no vote or voice in our AMT work group, they have NO say in what union we support or do not. Yet, I have had stock clerks and rampers yelling, screaming, threatening harm, putting up derogatory flyers, and protesting ( the twu Internationals' stock clerk spokesmodel comes to mind) about how AMFA will do this and won't do that. To me, this is the same as an AMT getting up in a pilots or F/A's face and telling them about what union or issue they should support or not.

AMT's have NO skin in their game, AMT's have NO voice in their game, and they more than likely in a forceful manner tell us to go PACK IT UP OUR ___ to put it mildly. I don't recall, but I can't imagine the AA AMT's deriding and badmouthing the AA F/A's when they dumped the twu for the APFA way back when. The AMT group would have not a thing to say to them about it.....nothing. Maybe a "Sorry to see you go...good luck" is about it.

Now is this being elitist? Is this divisive? Is this point being made that we want to "tear down the rampers or stock clerks" and wish them harm? NO!!!! They can have all the twu they want, it's all yours folks, good luck. Just don't tell me about my career choices, or what opinions I should have, or how I should vote. I can make up my own mind without any ramper or stock clerks unwanted opinions. However, it's far more that just a simple opinion though, it's all the hate and threats that goes along with it. They have no skin in my game, so their opinions mean nothing, and should be kept to themselves.

I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

BTW Bob, congrats on your officer position......I guess. h34r:

FYI, Rampers are in fact required to take drug tests; many have been required to pi$$ in the bottle. Too bad those you say you saw didn't get caught, they should have been arrested immediately for possession of illegal narcotics; just like those dozen or so AMTs on the MIA ramp that got busted by the DEA a few years back for smuggling. Working on the ramp (as a ramper or AMT) is dangerous enough when everyone is clean and sober.

 

[restore03]

Hackman,

You've made it pretty clear your dislike for the rampers or that they are in the same pathetic union.
Your argument that they start out with the same money as an OSM and yet have less responsibilities
is hogwash. Maybe different responsibilities, but you have no clue what mine are and if they're any less
important. How about giving the AMT's vs the Rampers a break and try doing something constructive and
getting us ALL a contract we can live with. The whining on a message board accomplishes absolutely nothing
(except making you feel better) and right now it is what it is. Maybe if we direct our anger toward the immediate
issues and not at other work groups, we can get some things settled.

 

[Bob Owens]

Is it possible for the AA Latin American based AMTs to be in the same union as the AA domestic AMTs? Would those governments permit a "yanqui" union to operate on their soil? Would it violate any of their national laws? I believe Chile permitted the AFA to represent UA F/As based in Chile (although UA closed that base when they stopped flying to SCL years ago), but would others permit US based unions to represent their citizens?

I honestly dont know but I dont see any reason why not. If foreign based corporations can employ locals then why couldnt those workers be represented by a union from the same place? Union organizing can be a dangerous profession in South America though. The issue with foreign AA workers is that the work they accomplish is counted as TWU work even though its not done by TWU members.

The fact that some unions have the word "international" in their titles mean nothing; it is just a title to make them appear bigger than they really are.

It could also just have been convienient familiar terminology that the Socialists who founded most of the unions were used to using. The IAM and IBT do represent workers in Canada and IIRC a Teamster organizer was murdered in Columbia a while back.

And finally what about the differences in living standards? Even you have to admit the living standards are much higher in TUL and DFW than they are in Latin America.

I've never been there so I really cant say. I would guess that each country is different.

BTW What position did you win? I went to your local website and could find nothing. Congratulations on what ever it is that you won.

President. Thanks.

 

[Bob Owens]

I'd say the twu has done far better for the rampers than they have for us Bob, if you can call what the twu does "better". As i'm sure you know Bob, the line mechanics issues with the twu are on the back burner at the line stations because we are outnumbered so greatly by the ramp. Just one of the many problems being an AMT in the worthless twu. Case in point, an OSM starts at $8.89, but has more responsiblity and is subject to drug tests.

Blaming rampers is too easy, the real causes are more complex. With semi-seperate contracts, votes, negotiations and Locals, the ramp vote has much less influence on the outcome of the M&R contracts. You have to remember that Rampers didnt vote in OSMs, mechanics did. IIRC when the contract that created SRPs -pre-OSMs-was voted in, Ramp rejected their contract.

This is the issue Bob. Rampers and stock clerks in the twu have no vote or voice in our AMT work group, they have NO say in what union we support or do not. Yet, I have had stock clerks and rampers yelling, screaming, threatening harm, putting up derogatory flyers, and protesting ( the twu Internationals' stock clerk spokesmodel comes to mind) about how AMFA will do this and won't do that. To me, this is the same as an AMT getting up in a pilots or F/A's face and telling them about what union or issue they should support or not.

Nobody should yell, scream or threaten but everyone has the right to express an opinion. We are in the same union, we are in the same union because 60 years ago mechanics chose to go to the TWU and since that time there has not been an overwhelming call by the class and craft as a whole to change unions, I say overwhelming because we all know what happened a few years ago. As a class and craft we have the right to leave, but since we are in the same union workers in other class and crafts have the right to add their opinions on why we should stay together, that right doesnt include screaming and threatening. You and anyone else who chooses to do so has the right to ignore those opinions but not the right to tell them they have no right to express it.

I don't recall, but I can't imagine the AA AMT's deriding and badmouthing the AA F/A's when they dumped the twu for the APFA way back when. The AMT group would have not a thing to say to them about it.....nothing. Maybe a "Sorry to see you go...good luck" is about it.

I'd imagine there was some animosity, despite the fact that it happened decades ago Jim Little told us not to support the FAs when they picketed AA a few years back. We did anyway.

Now is this being elitist? Is this divisive? Is this point being made that we want to "tear down the rampers or stock clerks" and wish them harm? NO!!!! They can have all the twu they want, it's all yours folks, good luck.

No but thats the way it comes across and thats probably why AMFA never came to a vote. The attacks on Rampers pretty much drove Title II away from signing cards. Had they signed at the same rate as Title I there would have been a vote. The arguement never should have gone from "uniting mechanics" to "getting away from Rampers".

My point is simply this: Stick to talking about the positive reasons why you want what you want. Dont let a debate between you and an individual degrade into slamming an entire class of workers.

Right now we should focus on fighting to get back what we gave up instead of fighting each other. At this point we are better off building coalitions with all the parties that lost in 2003 instead of fighting each other.

BTW Bob, congrats on your officer position......I guess. h34r:

Thanks.

 

[restore03]

I second that Bob, all of it!

 

[Hackman]

Hackman,

You've made it pretty clear your dislike for the rampers or that they are in the same pathetic union.
Your argument that they start out with the same money as an OSM and yet have less responsibilities
is hogwash. Maybe different responsibilities, but you have no clue what mine are and if they're any less
important. How about giving the AMT's vs the Rampers a break and try doing something constructive and
getting us ALL a contract we can live with. The whining on a message board accomplishes absolutely nothing
(except making you feel better) and right now it is what it is. Maybe if we direct our anger toward the immediate
issues and not at other work groups, we can get some things settled.

Incorrect Restore03 on your generalization about my views, I have a distain for some rampers, ones that can't keep their negative opinions to themselves on my career choices. I also have spent a number of years on the line, so yeah, I do have a clue about your job and what it entails if you are in fact a ramper. I also have had a few friends that worked the ramp, they are nice people. Then their were the others, and I won't go into the ugly details about them.

I am far from whining sir (i assume you are a sir). Attempted constructive changes and some accountability with the twu have been attempted for years upon years, by so many twu members they are too numerous to count. Those attempts have been thwarted at every turn, and in mine and many of my colleages opinions, change is impossible, and will not happen....ever. So therefore replacement of the twu by another representative is unfortunately the only option. Think about this point; the APFA and the APA have replaced those at the top, however we are still stuck with the same incompetent company unionism we had in 2003 with the twu International . Do you understand now? Unaccountable and in for life.

Your wish of recieving a contract "we can live with" is also a dream with our current bargaining agent. Therefore, any level of anger directed at the "current issues" will not be heard.

 

[restore03]

Hackman,

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat with you like aafsc and yourself. I will just tell you that yes I am a ramp c/c and have been for 27 years at DFW. Since you know what my job entails, restricted articles, dangerous goods, weight and balance among other things, then maybe you do realize that my job is no less important than your OSM's, maybe different responsibilities, but not less important. Have a good day Hackman and I hope whatever you wish for and fight for you get. Merry Christmas!

 

[Hackman]

Hackman,

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat with you like aafsc and yourself. I will just tell you that yes I am a ramp c/c and have been for 27 years at DFW. Since you know what my job entails, restricted articles, dangerous goods, weight and balance among other things, then maybe you do realize that my job is no less important than your OSM's, maybe different responsibilities, but not less important. Have a good day Hackman and I hope whatever you wish for and fight for you get. Merry Christmas!

The same here, the fighting over the years is very tiresome with those that do nothing but deride those of us that want change as "elitest", not to mention all the other nasty stuff that has gone on. For me it's a simple as F/A's and pilots with their own representation, ALL AMT's should have our own also. I think that's the way it should be.

I do agree, you have an important job, no doubt. I'm not getting into who's got the most important job. The only big difference is the signing of an aircraft logbook, and the fines and possible jail time we as AMT's are subject to if we make a mistake.

Thanks for the best wishs and Merry Christmas to you also.