"Super Session" Negotiations

[Hackman]

Agreed that rampers could have had a job if they were willing to relocate; but they can remain on the street and await recall to where they were laid off from; thus they are "legally" on layoff status.

IAM scabs at NW? While some former IAM members crossed, I thought the majority were people like PTO who were from the hack shops and were always anti-union to begin with. Also, there were the very vocal AMFA organizers who crossed.

As for what AMFA should have done while training the scabs; your right, a wild cat would have been illegal (although we did do this at EAL). What they should have done is explored the legal options available to them at the time; they could have done informational picketing; maybe a media campaign, or perhaps a work to rule; or all the above. They should have tried something instead of doing nothing.

Concerning my "sources" on the AMFA "begging" these are from various relevant websites visited over a period time; no reason not to believe them. A local needs money to operate; and since joining AMFA is no longer required at NWA and the vast majority of AMTs are strike breakers; it is logical to assume that dues at best are very minimal which compels the solicitation of dues (revenue) from new sources (scabs).

No matter how you slice it aafsc, some rampers chose to accept layoff, the 1000 AMT's did not have that option. Understand? They were offered recall and declined. Get it yet? The twu always puts the ramper first.

That's what I said, iam SCABS at NWA. Rampers who performed push backs and other AMT duties to help management, and former iam faithfull scab AMT's (a local MSP iam president was one of them) who were the some of the first to cross into scab land. One being a twu recruited and paid iam mouthpiece who appeared during the AA AMFA drive to tell his lies to the twu membership.

During the strike AMFA did work to rule and did consult legal recourse. They were hamstrung by the bias NMB who allowed NWA management to do as they pleased, and by the wonderful RLA as we all know (well, maybe you don't) that is slanted to help management win in these situations. So your statement that they did nothing is false. In addition, the membership voted overwhelmingly to stike, they just waited too long to do it. This allowed Dougie Stealin' time to hatch his scab plan. As said, it would have been a very different outcome had they walked immediately after learning of scabs being trained, but people would have gone to jail.

As I said, AMFA is bound RLA to represent the membership at NWA, including scabs. This is wrong in so many ways, but that's the law. They should wring as much money as they can out of them for services rendered, but should not be allowed to join. I for one would like scabs to hang if they get in a bind with management, they don't need a union, but this brings in a DFR, so AMFA has no choice in representation issues. I assume you read the filth laden "NUTS BB" iam sponsered web site, which is no surprise based on your moronic disinformantion. If anyone is licking the NWA management boots it's the iam rampers, to keep themselves from being the next target, which I predict will happen very soon with DAL on the property.

 

[restore03]

I won't say all/most rampers are dumber than a box of rocks,

I for one appreciates your kindness. :unsure:

 

[Hackman]

Thanks for posting this. Seems EXPLICIT enough to me. AMFA went on and on about the "dangers" of outsourcing to third world countries then turns around and in EXPLICIT contract language allows 4 lines worth to go to the third world in exchange for a few pieces of silver; all while being cost neutral to the company.

It sure is "EXPLICIT'!!!! AMFA negotiated language where the Reamsters had nothing concerning outsourcing to foreign lands. So which is better aafsc??? NO language on outsourcing (i.e. UNLIMITED) or some defined limitations on it? I sure am glad your not negotiating for the twu....well maybe you have, judging by the state we have been in for the past 30 years. :blink:

I also read the twu has had MAJOR trouble getting a contract for the rampers at SWA? That can't really be the case with such a "STRONG" union can it??? "Will Strike If Provoked???

 

[aafsc]

No matter how you slice it aafsc, some rampers chose to accept layoff, the 1000 AMT's did not have that option. Understand? They were offered recall and declined. Get it yet? The twu always puts the ramper first.

That's what I said, iam SCABS at NWA. Rampers who performed push backs and other AMT duties to help management, and former iam faithfull scab AMT's (a local MSP iam president was one of them) who were the some of the first to cross into scab land. One being a twu recruited and paid iam mouthpiece who appeared during the AA AMFA drive to tell his lies to the twu membership.

During the strike AMFA did work to rule and did consult legal recourse. They were hamstrung by the bias NMB who allowed NWA management to do as they pleased, and by the wonderful RLA as we all know (well, maybe you don't) that is slanted to help management win in these situations. So your statement that they did nothing is false. In addition, the membership voted overwhelmingly to stike, they just waited too long to do it. This allowed Dougie Stealin' time to hatch his scab plan. As said, it would have been a very different outcome had they walked immediately after learning of scabs being trained, but people would have gone to jail.

As I said, AMFA is bound RLA to represent the membership at NWA, including scabs. This is wrong in so many ways, but that's the law. They should wring as much money as they can out of them for services rendered, but should not be allowed to join. I for one would like scabs to hang if they get in a bind with management, they don't need a union, but this brings in a DFR, so AMFA has no choice in representation issues. I assume you read the filth laden "NUTS BB" iam sponsered web site, which is no surprise based on your moronic disinformantion. If anyone is licking the NWA management boots it's the iam rampers, to keep themselves from being the next target, which I predict will happen very soon with DAL on the property.

Yes, the laid off rampers could have had a job if willing to move; I have said as much. Time to lay this one to rest.

The NW mechanics who crossed their own picket line were legally members of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association; they paid their union dues to AMFA; not the IAM. They may have voted for the IAM in the election, but they lost. When AMFA won, the IAM ceased to exist on the property (as far as AMTs go). The former IAM local president may have crossed, but so did a lot of the people who worked to bring AMFA in. But NW broke the strike by training enough PTO type replacements. Regarding rampers doing pushbacks, yes some did do them some did not. The ones that did were more than likely given a direct order to do so by their supervisor; possibly threatened with termination for failure to comply. The ones that did so voluntarily probably did as a form of revenge against an organization that has a long history of heaping scorn on them.

"Dougie Stealin" started hatching his scab plan as soon as the first AMFA contract was signed at NW. They got the "big money" at the expense of scope. Shortly after the contract was signed, they closed ATL and outsourced the DC-9s; a couple years later they closed their MSP overhaul facility; the only overhaul base that remained was the DLH facility. Closing ATL and MSP resulted in the layoff of thousands. They went from about 10,500 AMFA members at date of signing to about 4,500 just before the strike. As the strike date approached, NW made outsourcing arrangements for the overhaul of the airbuses that were done in DLH. They also made arrangements to contract out all line maintenance at the line stations; now all they needed was about 800 AMTs to staff DTW and MSP- thats where the PTO types came in. In short, they were able to lay off so many AMFA members that the few that were left were easily replaceable. The FAILURE TO PROTECT SCOPE is what allowed "Dougie Stealin" to hatch and execute his plan. To insinuate that a few rampers pushing planes was instrumental in breaking the strike is foolish but indicative of the AMFA mentality. RAMPERS CAN'T CHANGES TIRES OR BRAKES, THEY CAN'T WORK ON COCKPIT INSTRUMENTATION OR ENGINES, AND THEY CERTAINLY CAN'T SIGN LOGBOOKS. The strike failed because AMTS crossed the picket line PERIOD. You can hurl all the insults you want at me but it won't change the facts.

As I posted earlier I have read a few websites; "nuts" was only one of them.

 

[WeAAsles]

Gentleman, gentleman can we move on back to the topic please? There are some pretty well informed MX professionals on here and some well informed Fleet professionals on here. You know right now the bozos at HQ are reading these posts with an infinite amount of glee. I think that any bias should be directed towards them and not at each other. The Super Session for joint is supposed to be over tomorrow. Lets just hope it has a good outcome for all of us at the end of the day?

In Brotherhood and solidarity to all my union brothers and sisters, Fleet, MX, Pilot and Fa's. I SHALL NOT give into the AA policy of divide and conquer!!!! :angry:

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

------------------------ WN------------------------------------AA-------------------------------------

Holidays----------10 days with 2 floaters--------------5 days

Vacation----------4 wks after 10 yrs-------------------3 wks after 10 yrs
---------------------5 wks after 18 yrs ------------------4 wks after 18 yrs

Sickleave---------2000 hrs max. at full pay-----------1200 hrs. max. 1/2 pay first 2 days per occurance

Retirement-------7.3% max. match---------------------Company provided

Profitsharing-----3% max.--------------------------------0%

Pay------------------$38.97 hr.-----------------------------$32.20
----------------------+$1.30 max. senority (12 yrs.)-----0% senority
----------------------+$.56 shift or $.63 shift-------------+$.01 shift or +$.02 shift

Overtime----------1.5 and 2.0-----------------------------1.5 (.5 on holiday)

Stock options----600 shares per year--------------------0 shares per year

Healthcare--------No cost (basic plan)--------------------$202 mo. (emp. +2)



Eric, I'll take WN's package and I promise to work harder. BTW, WN TA'd contract will add 10% over 4 yrs. + bonus +productivity.

Ditto

 

[aafsc]

It sure is "EXPLICIT'!!!! AMFA negotiated language where the Reamsters had nothing concerning outsourcing to foreign lands. So which is better aafsc??? NO language on outsourcing (i.e. UNLIMITED) or some defined limitations on it? I sure am glad your not negotiating for the twu....well maybe you have, judging by the state we have been in for the past 30 years. :blink:

I also read the twu has had MAJOR trouble getting a contract for the rampers at SWA? That can't really be the case with such a "STRONG" union can it??? "Will Strike If Provoked???

First off, we would have to know the language regarding this issue in the current agreement. I did a search and could not find the current CBA. Not knowing what the current agreements says I can only hypothosize.

If the "Reamsters" had nothing regarding outsourcing to foreign lands, then why didn't Southwest do it along time ago? Was there something in the "Reamster" contract that prevented it? Was it explicity forbidden under the "Reamster" contract but acceptable under this AMFA T/A in exchange for wage increases? Is possible the AMFA is "spinning" the issue by saying they are adding "restrictions" to the "current foreign outsourcing allowances" even if these allowances don't currently exist or are forbidden altogether in order to save face? Why didn't AMFA just explicity forbid any and all foreign outsourcing? To answer these questions we would have to know what the current "Reamster" contract dictates regarding this issue.

As for me doing union work; you don't have to worry, never have, never will.

Don't know what is going on at Southwest/TWU but they are the highest paid rampers in the industry.

 

[Stock Clerks Need Luv Too!]

The Super Session for fleet is supposed to be over tomorrow. Lets just hope it has a good outcome for all of us at the end of the day?

Umm... Hello? See, there lies the problem. Its STORES, GROUND INSTRUCTORS, SIMULATOR TECHNICIANS and fleet.

 

[restore03]

Umm... Hello? See, there lies the problem. Its STORES, GROUND INSTRUCTORS, SIMULATOR TECHNICIANS and fleet.

So your point being?
Maybe if the STORES, GROUND INSTRUCTORS, SIMULATOR TECHNICIANS and fleet are able to
secure a decent contract (I have my doubts), wouldn't that bold well for those who follow?

 

[WeAAsles]

Umm... Hello? See, there lies the problem. Its STORES, GROUND INSTRUCTORS, SIMULATOR TECHNICIANS and fleet.

My apologies, I modified to Joint. And YES any descent contract should bode well for everyone if we were in solidarity! I wish some of you could stop seeing the glass as half empty? HQ READS OUR POSTS HERE GUYS!!!!!

 

[aafsc]

First off, we would have to know the language regarding this issue in the current agreement. I did a search and could not find the current CBA. Not knowing what the current agreements says I can only hypothosize.

If the "Reamsters" had nothing regarding outsourcing to foreign lands, then why didn't Southwest do it along time ago? Was there something in the "Reamster" contract that prevented it? Was it explicity forbidden under the "Reamster" contract but acceptable under this AMFA T/A in exchange for wage increases? Is possible the AMFA is "spinning" the issue by saying they are adding "restrictions" to the "current foreign outsourcing allowances" even if these allowances don't currently exist or are forbidden altogether in order to save face? Why didn't AMFA just explicity forbid any and all foreign outsourcing? To answer these questions we would have to know what the current "Reamster" contract dictates regarding this issue.

As for me doing union work; you don't have to worry, never have, never will.

Don't know what is going on at Southwest/TWU but they are the highest paid rampers in the industry.

UPDATE: I found the current SWA "Reamster" AMT contract on AMFA's website.

From Article 2-SCOPE.

Line 6: "Work that is customarily performed by mechanics on the Southwest Airlines Co. system seniority list within the United States, it's territories or possessions SHALL NOT BE MOVED TO AN INTERNATIONAL LOCATION WITHOUT THE UNIONS CONSENT" (caps mine).

Well Well Well What have we here, lets discuss this.

Hackman and others have stated that Southwest does a small amount of it's own heavy overhaul, C-checks and "phase checks". This work is obviously done on a regular basis (customarily performed) by Southwest AMTs (who are on the Southwest Airlines Co. system seniority list). This work can not be moved to foreign soil without the unions consent. In other words, the moving of work to an international location is totally and clearly FORBIDDEN under the current "Reamster" contract. But under this new AMFA T/A, AMFA WILL ALLOW work to be done on foreign soil in exchange for wage increases. Just as I suspected, AMFA is being far from truthful by saying it is "adding restrictions to foreign outsourcing" even though foreign outsourcing was totally and completely forbidden under the current "Reamster" agreement.
They are trading scope language for wage increases which results in a cost neutral contract for the company; just like they did at NW.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, your statement would be true but only if several variables were to happen.

1. The FAA would have to basically force our competitors to do overhaul domestically. Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever happen.

Well the issue is that the FAA can not provide proper oversight of foreign facilities. Its been an issue since the FAA relaxed their policy of oversight back in either the late 80s or early 90s. How can they justify the crackdown they are waging domestically when they admit they dont have the capability to do the same overseas?

2. Even if it did, would they send their aircraft to AA or to the Timcos and the AARs?

It wouldnt matter, it would increase domestic demand which would help drive up prices for that service whether they bought it at AA, TIMCO or AAR. So even if they sent everything to TIMCO their costs would still go up and AA would enjoy a cost advantage.

3. Would AA be able to get enough business to get full utilization of all the facilities (thus lowering fixed costs per unit to the smallest number possible) while being productive enough to keep the variable costs at the optimum point on the variable cost curve?

I think within three years or so AA will have enough of a challenge staffing their own facilities.

4. Would our competitors just decide to start doing their own maintenance again? Would they want to incur all the set up costs (hangars, equipment, AMTs, management, clerical, and support staff)?

Once again, if they did AA would still enjoy a cost advantage because they already have that in place.

If the FAA decided to force them to bring the work back to the states and they decided to send the work to AA instead of the Timcos or doing it themselves and if all the cost accounting were to work out, then you would be correct.

I think that AA should sell their surpluss capacity, not neccisarily man to be a major MRO provider.

Optimal productivity in terms of fixed and variable costs combined with much less down time by overhauling them quicker (example AA's super 80s) and fewer or no post overhaul problems results in greater value for potential customers because the recently overhauled aircraft gets back in the air much sooner thus producing revenue. I would imagine someone at AA has a spreadsheet somewhere.

It also results in lower costs for AA and thats why AA keeps OH in house.

AA has advertised it's maintenance capability at MRO trade shows and has it's own MRO website. So it seems that they are trying to get the business but the results have been less than stellar.

Because AA has a history of all of a sudden deciding to get out of the MRO business and telling clients to go away. Stricter FAA oversight could be a major boost for AAs MRO. Another one of the plus's is that all AA's workers are "Airline workers", having undergone rigorous background checks, so the likelyhood of having undocumented aliens working on their planes is extremely thin.

 

[Hackman]

UPDATE: I found the current SWA "Reamster" AMT contract on AMFA's website.

From Article 2-SCOPE.

Line 6: "Work that is customarily performed by mechanics on the Southwest Airlines Co. system seniority list within the United States, it's territories or possessions SHALL NOT BE MOVED TO AN INTERNATIONAL LOCATION WITHOUT THE UNIONS CONSENT" (caps mine).

Well Well Well What have we here, lets discuss this.

Hackman and others have stated that Southwest does a small amount of it's own heavy overhaul, C-checks and "phase checks". This work is obviously done on a regular basis (customarily performed) by Southwest AMTs (who are on the Southwest Airlines Co. system seniority list). This work can not be moved to foreign soil without the unions consent. In other words, the moving of work to an international location is totally and clearly FORBIDDEN under the current "Reamster" contract. But under this new AMFA T/A, AMFA WILL ALLOW work to be done on foreign soil in exchange for wage increases. Just as I suspected, AMFA is being far from truthful by saying it is "adding restrictions to foreign outsourcing" even though foreign outsourcing was totally and completely forbidden under the current "Reamster" agreement.
They are trading scope language for wage increases which results in a cost neutral contract for the company; just like they did at NW.

My god, the hits just keep on coming! Outsourced is outsourced! A hack shop in the USA or a hack shop in another country!!!! About the same thing right? Yes. No limits on the outsource percentage in the old SWA Reamster contract, just a location where it can be sent. Some scope clause. I haven't read the SWA Reamster contract, but I will when time allows. It appears you have no arguement what-so-ever Mr. Ramper.

Now to the facts you fail to mention. The REAMSTERS allowed SWA outsourcing to be done in the first place, no limits....that's a fact. So you expect AMFA to come in a stop it cold after it was already gone? It's gone! Too bad you don't hold the industrial unions to the same standard. Your AMFA hatred blinds you.

Lets discuss that major industrial union problem shall we?

To NWA and the iam. The iam allowed the NWA management to send the DC10's and 747's to China, they started that ball rolling. The iam did this, not AMFA. But again, you expect AMFA to come in an rewrite the contract when the damage was aready done? Pure idiocy.

Let's not forget the wonderful iam at UAL. Before they got booted by AMFA, they gave away the FARM to screw AMFA, all the maintenance bases gone and allowed UAL to have UNLIMITED outsourcing of all aircraft...as much as management wanted. They burned the house down, then the iam tried to blame AMFA for their dispicable actions. You can't defend that either.

Then finally on to the worthless twu. Concession, after concession, after concession even with billions of dollars in AMR profits.....but we still have heavy maintenance!!!! Started the b-scale, started the SRP/OSM program, started Flex Benefits, gave away push-backs, and de-ice to rampers, loss of company paid LTD....and on and on....to much to list. Then in 2003 the WORST concessionary contract EVER seen going on 6 years now, "without futher ratification" by the company man Jim Little. It will most likely never return, not with twu running the show. Might as well turn out the lights on the hope of ever recovering from that torpedo in the bow. They lowered the industry standard that all the other airlines can never hope to match, that is 30 years of twu concessions.


Like I said, you should stick to RAMPER issues aafsc. Because the more you talk, the dumber you get. :blink:

I'm done with you, you can now return to the iam "NUTS" BB and be somebody.

 

[aafsc]

My god, the hits just keep on coming! Outsourced is outsourced! A hack shop in the USA or a hack shop in another country!!!! About the same thing right? Yes. No limits on the outsource percentage in the old SWA Reamster contract, just a location where it can be sent. Some scope clause. I haven't read the SWA Reamster contract, but I will when time allows. It appears you have no arguement what-so-ever Mr. Ramper.

Now to the facts you fail to mention. The REAMSTERS allowed SWA outsourcing to be done in the first place, no limits....that's a fact. So you expect AMFA to come in a stop it cold after it was already gone? It's gone! Too bad you don't hold the industrial unions to the same standard. Your AMFA hatred blinds you.

Lets discuss that major industrial union problem shall we?

To NWA and the iam. The iam allowed the NWA management to send the DC10's and 747's to China, they started that ball rolling. The iam did this, not AMFA. But again, you expect AMFA to come in an rewrite the contract when the damage was aready done? Pure idiocy.

Let's not forget the wonderful iam at UAL. Before they got booted by AMFA, they gave away the FARM to screw AMFA, all the maintenance bases gone and allowed UAL to have UNLIMITED outsourcing of all aircraft...as much as management wanted. They burned the house down, then the iam tried to blame AMFA for their dispicable actions. You can't defend that either.

Then finally on to the worthless twu. Concession, after concession, after concession even with billions of dollars in AMR profits.....but we still have heavy maintenance!!!! Started the b-scale, started the SRP/OSM program, started Flex Benefits, gave away push-backs, and de-ice to rampers, loss of company paid LTD....and on and on....to much to list. Then in 2003 the WORST concessionary contract EVER seen going on 6 years now, "without futher ratification" by the company man Jim Little. It will most likely never return, not with twu running the show. Might as well turn out the lights on the hope of ever recovering from that torpedo in the bow. They lowered the industry standard that all the other airlines can never hope to match, that is 30 years of twu concessions.


Like I said, you should stick to RAMPER issues aafsc. Because the more you talk, the dumber you get. :blink:

I'm done with you, you can now return to the iam "NUTS" BB and be somebody.

No difference between a domestic hack shop and third world hack shop? Please tell me your joking? There is a huge difference; around $15/hr worth of difference. Guess those poor souls with an A&P at a domestic hack shop are now not even worthy of $20-$25 an hour. ANY union that allows foreign overhaul is helping to lower overhaul wages in this country. Also, it looks like AMFA gave away pushbacks and deicing to the rampers at Love field in this latest T/A.

And finally, it was YOU who responded to my post in my response to Bob Owens. I may be a ramper now but I spent part of my time at EAL in heavy overhaul where AMFA was trying to get in which is one reason why I take interest in this subject. If you don't like it you can either ignore my posts or go pi$$ up a rope.

 

[Bob Owens]

ANY union that allows foreign overhaul is helping to lower overhaul wages in this country.

The TWU allows Ack's, ECO's and SIC's to be done by foreign workers and counts it as being done "in house"-thus allowing the company to contract out more. They do this because they claim they are AA workers, but they are not part of our contract.

A few years back we used to ship our engines to foreign lands for Overhaul as well (Canada?). They brought the work back in house because the quality was poor and the costs were high, our guys did it better and cheaper.

But to think that mechanics were the only victims or that Fleet workers benifited from our decline would be a mistake. Fleet workers start as low as $8/hr, they've obviously taken big hits too.


The fact is that the TWU has not done a good job for Mechanics or FSCs (nor anyone else on the property) and maybe instead of throwing barbs at each other we should see what we can do about changing that. How about it aafsc and Hackman?