The Right Thing To Do.

[Hackman]

You know what Bob, you are a real piece of crap! I have read your babble again and have concluded that I'm sick and tired of your "hoity-toity" New York Bull$hitttt....!!!!! Who do you think you are anyway Bob...? Are you a self proclaimed leader of the free world...? You compare me to the likes of Saddam Hussain? Take a look in a mirror you elitist prick.... :angry:

As far as I am concerned you can take your A&P and """"Shove it up your fat money hungry A$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"""........!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry:

-----------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="189770"][/post]​

Woo-ha, gittin' a little hot under them thar britches ay redneck ? You call Bobs relavent posts "hoity-toity" New York Bull$hitttt....!!!!! Yet, you support a worthless bus driver union started and is based in "hoity-toity" New Yawk City, on very exspensive Broadway Avenue!!!! Damn you that dumb???

Sunny and the boys hide from the membership here in multi-million dollar twu international offices. While you morons keep the faith they will sometime, somehow, someway fight this company and all they have taken from us.

Concessions for jobs (dues) does not work!!!! When will you see this??? I am guessing your going to see it very soon.

You've been sniffin' too much cuttin' oil....... :blink:

 

[cheetah]

you go hackman!(good post)

 

[Bob Owens]

"Well it appears that you are finally agreeing that AMFAs performance surpasses the TWUs. As you admit the TWU has multiple failures.

You said it."

You are for once correct Owens. But performance is rated either positive or negative in relation to it's merit. amfa's performance, by it's history, is negative and has surpassed any negatives of the TWU.

[post="190351"][/post]​

Sure but it said "performance has surpassed".

Performance is defined as the act of accomplishing, accomplishing being achieveing. Surpasses means exceeding, exceptional, all of these words imply positive, not negative.


Perhaps it he had written it differently it could be correctly interpreted differently, but he wrote, despite his intentions, that AMFAs performance has surpassed the failures of the TWU.

This sentence can be broken down to, AMFA s performance surpasses and the TWU has failures. Clearly the positives are attached to AMFA and the negatives to the TWU.


You see its all in the language, and thats the type of language we get with the TWU. Thats why our contracts are unenforcable, because just like that statement, which says that AMFAs performance has surpassed the TWUs, with their failures, the person who wrote it probably meant it to mean something else. This happens with our contracts during ratification all the time, the TWU says we have the language, they give us their interpretation however when it comes time to enforce it we lose. The Me Too clause was a perfect example. Same with "system attrition" of the shops. When the company agreed to it, they reasonbly interpreted the way it stands on its own. When it goes in front of the arbitrator he has to go by what it says and what both parties thought it said, in the end the language usually stands because the arbitrator assumes that both parties were literate.
The TWU usually just shrugs their shoulders and says "You guys ratified it"! Yea, based upon the lies you gave to us.

 

[Nightwatch]

Sure but it said "performance has surpassed".

Performance is defined as the act of accomplishing, accomplishing being achieveing. Surpasses means exceeding, exceptional, all of these words imply positive, not negative.
Perhaps it he had written it differently it could be correctly interpreted differently, but he wrote, despite his intentions, that AMFAs performance has surpassed the failures of the TWU.

This sentence can be broken down to, AMFA s performance surpasses and the TWU has failures. Clearly the positives are attached to AMFA and the negatives to the TWU.
You see its all in the language, and thats the type of language we get with the TWU. Thats why our contracts are unenforcable, because just like that statement, which says that AMFAs performance has surpassed the TWUs, with their failures, the person who wrote it probably meant it to mean something else. This happens with our contracts during ratification all the time, the TWU says we have the language, they give us their interpretation however when it comes time to enforce it we lose. The Me Too clause was a perfect example. Same with "system attrition" of the shops. When the company agreed to it, they reasonbly interpreted the way it stands on its own. When it goes in front of the arbitrator he has to go by what it says and what both parties thought it said, in the end the language usually stands because the arbitrator assumes that both parties were literate.
The TWU usually just shrugs their shoulders and says "You guys ratified it"! Yea, based upon the lies you gave to us.

[post="190832"][/post]​

Could you show me where amfa has been involved in a contract that surpasses the TWU's? One that they were 100% responsible for. Contract negotiations are indeed important, I also agree the language is important...please show me amfa's superior contract negotiations.

Is it the 38% cap on outsourcing?

 

[Bob Owens]

Could you show me where amfa has been involved in a contract that surpasses the TWU's? One that they were 100% responsible for. Contract negotiations are indeed important, I also agree the language is important...please show me amfa's superior contract negotiations.

Is it the 38% cap on outsourcing?

[post="191014"][/post]​

Well you can look at the old Ozark contract and compare it to the TWU contract at the time for one.

Everyone knows that the IAM brought back $29/hr then after AMFA booted them out AMFA came back with $35.

The TWU matched that $35, however our inferior benifits package still left our total compensation less than our counterparts at NWA. Not only that but the TWU then lowered our pay, slashed our benifits and changed our workrules as if they decertified the union less than half way through the three year contract.


Isnt a 38% cap better than no cap, which is what we have? You may soon find out the answer to that. Not only that but the TWU has demonstrated time and time again that they will not enforce the language they do have.

One example of this is system protection. Art Luby claimed that we dont need a cap because we have system protection, well everyne except the TWA guys that is right? Well logically system protection will only kick in during hard economic times. THats the reason for it, to protect workers when things go bad, but what does the TWU do? They roll the date back exposing thousands to layoff who thought they had system protection. Do you think they will do it again? Sure they will, especially if the company threatens BK again. So what does that mean to you guys in MCI? It means that if they ground the A-300 and close MCI that you wont have any place to go.

All the other contracts at major carriers are contracts that they inherited, good or bad. Everyone knows that under the RLA our contracts are amendable and that no union is going to be able to go in and change everything in one shot. It also stands that in a competitive industry that the gains of any one group of workers is going to be somewhat limited by what other workers at other companies are getting. That is why we must get rid of the TWU. With their unaccountable structure and pro company philosophy the TWU will continue to drag down the workers of this industry. Its clear, from the precedent setting contract at NWA, and now SWA that AMFA is trying to raise our standard of living and that the TWU with our industry leading concessions and outfits like Triangle, Worldwide and Ogden that the TWU is trying to win the race to the bottom. The TWU treats its members like a commodity instead of a customer, they are trying to make up in volume what is lost in unit value. The question is does this strategy suit our interests as members or their interests as benificiaries of an increased membership? They continue to give themselves raises while we continue to give concessions.


The more we go back and forth the clearer it becomes that you guys must have attended the same "debate" school as GW.

 

[Decision 2004]

Nightwatch,

Bob Owens is correct once again.

Below you will find a scan of the Ozark Contract of 1982-1984 time frame.

Mechanics hired in to the AMFA Represented Ozark in 1984 at a starting rate of 15.20 per hour and topped out within 18 months of employment. Now compare that to the TWU entry of $10.00 per hour, which was reduced from $13.05 and the TWU top out which was 12 1/2 YEARS.

Folks like yoruself have been shown this factual information time and time again, and all you do is abandon the thread and start another until you get blasted again. When are you going to open your eyes to the facts and stop the fantasy fear and hate for the only Mechanics Union in the industry? Yeah, AMFA has set backs too, but until ALL Mechanics are in one Union, the idea and not even been tried. So how can you claim something that has not even been tried has failed?

Enjoy the facts below:

 

[Nightwatch]

So nothing more recent that 1982? Anything from the last 20 years? And Owen, you really beleive that a cap is better? What was NWA outsource % number prior to placing the cap? And did it not actually go beyond the 38% cap? You allow the company, any company, the ability to reach an ungrievable outsource level and they will get there overnight.

amfa matched the IBT raise level, as did the TWU. I've heard your lame spin about IBT repping the package delivery and they weren't hauling passengers, but the fact remains, the aircraft are worked by mechanics, unless you're suggesting that we are held up by the type of payload our aircraft carry.

 

[Bob Owens]

Nightwatch,Oct 16 2004, 04:29 PM]
So nothing more recent that 1982? Anything from the last 20 years?


Well as we have already mentioned many times our brothers at SWA, AMFA represented SWA will be making over $400/week more than we will in 2008, and our brothers at NWA, AMFA represented NWA are making $5/hr more than we are.


And Owen, you really beleive that a cap is better?


During the Kreuz arbitration case Art Luby grabbed me and tried to sell me the 2001 contract, this took place in August of 2001. I had been making posts urging that our contract be rejected because it lacked adequate protections. Specifically our Scope Clause. The issue of no cap came up. Art claimed that our "system protection" was better than a cap because if the company shrank and we had a cap that they could lay people off while the system protection clause would force the company to bring work back in house. However events since this conversation prove that Luby's theory was incorrect because as we all know on those rare occasions where the language is clear, and in favor of the members, the TWU will simply waive the language and claim that they are "saving jobs" even when in fact the action causes people to lose their jobs, such as the roll back of system protection.

So to answer your question do I think a 38% cap, being enforced by Amfa, is better, than no cap and a "flexible system protection, as promised by the TWU? The answer is YES.

What was NWA outsource % number prior to placing the cap?

I believe they had no defined percentage cap although I'll admit I do not know for certain.

And did it not actually go beyond the 38% cap? You allow the company, any company, the ability to reach an ungrievable outsource level and they will get there overnight.

If they exceeded it I'm sure AMFA grieved it. I have no doubt however that the concessionary TWU contracts at AA have pressured other carriers to outsource more in order to try and have maintenance costs that are competitive with AA. The TWU gave AA "outsource" labor rates in overhaul and most other companies had real unions that resisted creating new subclasses of workers that would strip work away from the more highly paid members of their unions. As a result they outsourced more. THe question is that as workers are the actions of the TWU, in driving down labor rates, really what we expect from a union? If the objective is to make AA the most profitable even at the expense of lower wages and less benifits couldnt we achieve that without giving up the three hours worth of pay to an organization like the TWU? Isnt union affiliation supposed to result in improved living standards or at least protection from declining living standards? The fact is the TWU has, despite collecting millions in dues, plus millions from the company, provided neither improvements or protection for the last twenty years.

amfa matched the IBT raise level, as did the TWU.


But the TWU then slashed compensation by 25%. They could not even hold it for the three years of the contract. However those at AMFA have kept their wages and I believe that the new pay rates at AMFA represented SWA are the highest in the industry.

I've heard your lame spin about IBT repping the package delivery and they weren't hauling passengers, but the fact remains, the aircraft are worked by mechanics, unless you're suggesting that we are held up by the type of payload our aircraft carry.


Well as I've told you many times before that was not my spin but the TWUs spin. You really have poor reading comprehension.

The TWU claims that we can not expect the type of wages that UPS gets because they are in a different industry. I dont buy it either. But I've heard this from both Little and Gless. They are airplanes and we use the same Liscences.

It seems that you like the IBT. Ok so how do we get the IBT? WE cant go there from the TWU and affiliation through the AFL-CIO does not really provide us with the benifit of the IBT. Its just like how your IAM affiliation really did not benifit you much when you came to the TWU.

Its sad that the only union that you can claim, and present any evidence to support your claim, is better than AMFA is the IBT, one that you do not belong to. So tell me if you are right, and the IBT is better than AMFA, both of course are better than the TWU, how does being stuck with the TWU help you? The only way you can get to the IBT is from a union outside of the AFL-CIO.

 

[j7915]

Nightwatch,

Bob Owens is correct once again.

Below you will find a scan of the Ozark Contract of 1982-1984 time frame.

Mechanics hired in to the AMFA Represented Ozark in 1984 at a starting rate of 15.20 per hour and topped out within 18 months of employment. Now compare that to the TWU entry of $10.00 per hour, which was reduced from $13.05 and the TWU top out which was 12 1/2 YEARS.

Folks like yoruself have been shown this factual information time and time again, and all you do is abandon the thread and start another until you get blasted again. When are you going to open your eyes to the facts and stop the fantasy fear and hate for the only Mechanics Union in the industry? Yeah, AMFA has set backs too, but until ALL Mechanics are in one Union, the idea and not even been tried. So how can you claim something that has not even been tried has failed?

Enjoy the facts below:

[post="191644"][/post]​

So where do I send my job application for Ozark???????????????????

If AMFA True believers would realize that, 1st maintenance is not like the pilots a single skill occupation, and 2nd, not all maint jobs are worth the same then they would not have had the elimination of many jobs out of aviation.

Pilots and maintenance do have some similarity: a second officers can be a second officer for 30 years and he still will not make what the captain makes in the same cockpit. He also has less responsibility even if he has the same skills, on paper at least. Same goes for maintenance, stay in routine work, and you will never make as much as the other person who work at varied skills. The market place has decided that, even if the unions did not negotiate that outcome.

Why did Delle not accept that there will alwasys be a disparity of pay between job and job. Instead he let one airline after the other outsource everything permanently? Just what and where did Delle work in his first and apparently only job in Aviation?

 

[Bob Owens]

So where do I send my job application for Ozark???????????????????

If AMFA True believers would realize that, 1st maintenance is not like the pilots a single skill occupation, and 2nd, not all maint jobs are worth the same then they would not have had the elimination of many jobs out of aviation.

Pilots and maintenance do have some similarity: a second officers can be a second officer for 30 years and he still will not make what the captain makes in the same cockpit. He also has less responsibility even if he has the same skills, on paper at least. Same goes for maintenance, stay in routine work, and you will never make as much as the other person who work at varied skills. The market place has decided that, even if the unions did not negotiate that outcome.

Why did Delle not accept that there will alwasys be a disparity of pay between job and job. Instead he let one airline after the other outsource everything permanently? Just what and where did Delle work in his first and apparently only job in Aviation?

[post="192303"][/post]​

There you go again, delivering us the corporate union point of view. "Wages must go down, wages must go down, wages must go down". "If you want more money you must move up."

Delle let airlines outsource? Seems that once again your facts are distorted and you totally ignore the fact that despite SRPs and the lowest union rates going that AA has been the leader in outsourceing spending more than any other airline.

 

[Drippy Quill]

Is it true that AA is the only airline doing 100% of their Major Base Overhauls...how is AMFA @ Alaskan Air doing with theirs?